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hey everybody I've an interview coming

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up in just a minute with dr. Donald de

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gracia from Wayne State University

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School of Medicine and I wanted to do a

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little bit of an intro because I kind of

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screwed up the intro when I was talking

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to Don Don is a brilliant guy and what

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he does as his day job is way over my

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head he works at the School of Medicine

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in doing some very advanced research on

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stroke victims and cell death a National

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Institute of Health grants and other

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stuff that I don't totally understand he

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has a totally different approach to it a

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nonlinear approach because so he's tried

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to incorporate other models and other

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paradigms but what you'll hear in this

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interview is that none of that stuff

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really matters that's not what Don's

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about what Don's about is really

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something much deeper to do with

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spirituality the nature of consciousness

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and what everything is really all about

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he's an absolutely fabulous guest one of

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my favorites particularly because I

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would hear about him in a lot of other

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places you won't see a lot of interviews

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with him he's not out there pumping

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books

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thinking is just imaginative unique and

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he's not afraid to tell it like it is

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so it's an interview I really enjoyed

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doing I hope you enjoy listening to it

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so we already told folks you're there at

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Wayne State University in the Department

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of physiology your professor and you've

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but you have this secret life you have a

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couple of secret lives but one of your

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secret what are you see your lives is

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you're really into comics and you're

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wearing your comic-con what what tee

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shirt are you wearing they're Black

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Panthers there we go sit that's the

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original black panther for all the black

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panther friends out there

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so okay you don't shy away from it but

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you also have this other secret life of

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a yogi and I think that is so cool and

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and we relate to each other because I'm

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a yogi and anyone's a yogi who says

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their yogi you know I had a car yeah

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well it's it's true cuz I had a guy on

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the show recently and the guys at total

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in my opinion total Pretender in terms

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of this kind of deeply spiritual kind of

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what wise kind of guy so you know we

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kind of got into a little I said Yama

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yogi and it goes what what kind of yogi

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but you know what's your heritage what

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what we can retreat did you go to kind

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of thing and it's like oh man yogi is a

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state of mind it's a philosophical ship

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it's no one can be a yogi right there is

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what's your a yogi you're not a yogi

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anymore cuz it transcends that but I I

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kind of don't want to get too that's I

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agree with that completely that's one of

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the awkward things about and I talk

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about yoga because people ask me what I

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do do I practice meditation do Yama and

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niyama that's what I do

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I'm not advanced enough to do meditation

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yeah explain it's the truth explain

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that's awesome it's awesome explain

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explain them what do you know in both

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what is science and and you know

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consciousness i define Yama and Yama as

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reading writing and arithmetic of yoga

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and do reading writing and arithmetic

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you can't do anything in the real world

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if you don't have Yama and Yama you

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can't do yoga for example in Yama you

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have like celibacy is one of them which

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is one of the more drastic one being

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unselfish there's a whole bunch in on

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harmful things like to make up the list

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of the Yama's and then the jnanis is

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like studying the spiritual scriptures

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and meditation is of that and what they

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really amount to is that yama is the

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world itself loosens its grip on you

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it's all designed to help you loosen

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your grip on the world because you know

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I mean there's background to this it's

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kind of hard to throw there now the blue

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you have to in this is what I think when

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you say you're just a yogi anybody can

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be yogi with the state of mind well it

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thirds that realizing that the world

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isn't what it seems to be right you

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start to question it you start to wonder

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what the hell is going on what is this

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all about and once you get to a certain

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level of sophistication you realize the

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world is not really something you can

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grab punch you right now it you just

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start to feel out you really do become

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skeptical right your little of skeptical

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is really great the whole enterprise

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because well you know it's it's

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interesting I've told the story many

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times but it's one of those

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serendipitous there are no coincidences

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coincidence but I chose the name skeptic

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Oh without fully appreciating what it

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was all about and then I went and read

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about these Greek philosophers and

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skeptic Coase was their philosophy and I

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love the the tagline it was inquiry to

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perpetuate doubt and I thought wow isn't

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that wonderful isn't that what it's

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always about

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because doubt doubt is is spiritual

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that's the pathway into yoga there's no

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question it's the pathway to you other

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so one of the things they talked about

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and you for your consciousness is how

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weird Yoga is in our culture very just

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it's not real yoga very strange people

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sit around on mats and go into gyms and

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exercising and all that I mean draws a

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little bit on hatha yoga traditions but

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it's not yoga you know well but before

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you say it's it's not yoga because I get

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your point but in a way it it it loses

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it too because I want to return back to

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the Yama Yama thing because it always

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gets me when people talk and maybe we'll

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talk later like about you know Aleister

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Crowley and there Aleister Crowley fans

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and I always want to say yeah but he was

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a despicable human being by every

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measure by by the way he lived his life

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no

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would model their life for their

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spiritual path after this person and to

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me but that's the the yama niyama it

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becomes self-evident I mean if you're a

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creepy dude

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then you're not a guy no matter you know

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what kind of poses you can do where no

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matter how long you can hold your breath

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or no matter what state you can achieve

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with it doesn't matter it's all

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delusional if you don't have Yama in the

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Yama down so yeah like I said in the

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book basically to make it the same Yama

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is loosening loosening the grip that the

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world has on you and then jnana is what

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do you replace it with

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which is a part of it the very first

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step is out and questioning and then

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that's why court of Nehemiah is studying

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the scriptures the Hindu scriptures

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because they start to fill your mind

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with alternatives to the world and they

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start to you know it explain to you what

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it found what you know what's a parent

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you're sinful and then that becomes to

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start and then from there it plays a

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role all the way up till the end all the

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way up till the end it becomes your

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shield that protects you from all of the

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digital influences that you encounter as

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you go deeper and deeper into the other

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practices well I wanted to I wanted to

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draw people's attention to two of your

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excellent books you've written several

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these books are amazing a lot of them

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grew out of your blog and a series of

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blog posts that you've done you've made

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these books available for free on your

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website

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Don dag com that's do n deg calm we'll

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have a link in the show notes and we're

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kind of pulling from two of those books

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one what is science and we did an

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interview a few years ago on that that's

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really brilliant in terms of what you've

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done in that book and I want to

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reference that again in a minute and the

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second is the yogic view of

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consciousness that you're alluding to

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where you really take a scholars

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approach to understanding the Yoga

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Sutras and breaking them down and

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analyzing them from a bunch of different

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ways and you've been alluding to that

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talking about that a little bit right

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now but I'd like you to maybe talk a

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little bit about first of all the chain

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of consciousness concept that you bring

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to this in order to help people

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understand a yogic view of what is

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consciousness and then you have a rather

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fascinating diagram in the book as well

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that it kind of shows a a projector and

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then a the cave of consciousness and

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immanuel kant's

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transcendent consciousness and the

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screen and you can maybe talk people

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through that who are listening who can't

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see it but can you tackle those to the

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chain of consciousness and this let's do

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the diagram first because that's the

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core of the whole book is based on that

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before we get too deep into it one of

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the issues is I don't know if I would

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call it scholarly per se it's you know

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I'd kind of addressed that my

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introduction it approaches whatever

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needs needs to be right sometimes it's

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kind of scholarly but sometimes it's

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very sarcastic and even sardonic

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sometimes I think it's funny you know I

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laugh at my own jokes though make nerdy

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I don't know oh there's what but done

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you're you're monopoly whenever you talk

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Don you're talking a pretty fricking

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high level intellectually for most

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people so it's great that you can you

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know bring it down with the

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self-deprecating humor and all the rest

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of that but I want people to know that

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that's why I wanted them to get a little

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bit of an introduction to who you are a

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serious heavyweight guy in terms of

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intellectually and that comes through so

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the fact that you can make it readable

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great but I'm sorry go ahead let's talk

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about that anyway yeah that graphic it's

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the core of the book I mean that came

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from nice try to understand vanderloos

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book the conquest of illusion and he

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basically discusses that idea and over

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the years it's kind of that's the way

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I've been able to model it and this is

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essentially the structure of what we are

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right here and it's a really amazing

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thing because it reconciles so much of

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Western philosophy is subsumed within

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this diagram and it also unites Western

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and Eastern philosophy and the idea

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basically isn't it it's large measure

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made out of based on the Plato's

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allegory of the cave which I presume

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especially your listeners are familiar

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with please go over it please go over it

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one more time because I

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to hear it five times before I really

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got it anyway

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what Plato's allegory yeah Plato's

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allegory give people the basics in it

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right so he talked about these prisoners

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who were chained with they're facing a

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cave wall and then behind them into the

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entrance of the cave you know light came

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through and they saw shadows moving on

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the wall and these prisoners concocted a

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whole cosmology basically based on the

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way the shadows moved on the wall

272
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because that's all they knew was the

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shadow and in the in the allegory one of

274
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the prisoners work experience chains and

275
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he turns around and sees that the

276
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shadows were just shadows in the

277
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projection of the world outside of cave

278
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and you know initially he's completely

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unfounded and doesn't have any ability

280
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to interpret you know he's like blinded

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by the light that's coming through the

282
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entrance it would eventually adapt and

283
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and that's you know now experienced in

284
00:12:41,210 --> 00:12:39,570
the real world and then the clincher is

285
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he comes back to tell the people in the

286
00:12:47,330 --> 00:12:44,460
cave that these are just shadows none of

287
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this is real and they all reject him

288
00:12:53,630 --> 00:12:50,670
they think he's insane oh it's a

289
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beautiful metaphor for a million things

290
00:12:58,100 --> 00:12:56,400
but it provides a model of the nature of

291
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our mind and so that basically the idea

292
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is is that our mind is like a balloon

293
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there's no outside there's only the

294
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inside there's no outside do it and II

295
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surface of the balloon is screened and

296
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this is our direct immediate everyday

297
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awareness or consciousness sensory

298
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perceptions our awareness of the world

299
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clogs our emotions that's all the stuff

300
00:13:25,610 --> 00:13:22,840
that everything that we're consciously

301
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aware of is the screen of consciousness

302
00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:29,350
but then idea of the cave in the model

303
00:13:35,070 --> 00:13:32,290
here is that screen itself what appears

304
00:13:37,410 --> 00:13:35,080
on the screen is caused by stuff inside

305
00:13:40,260 --> 00:13:37,420
the cave which in the West we call our

306
00:13:42,090 --> 00:13:40,270
subconscious or unconscious mind right

307
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and it's kind of like the idea in yoga

308
00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:44,290
they use the metaphor of a body of water

309
00:13:49,500 --> 00:13:47,050
where the surface of the water is our

310
00:13:51,450 --> 00:13:49,510
surface consciousness and then things

311
00:13:53,220 --> 00:13:51,460
the currents and Eddie's underneath the

312
00:13:57,510 --> 00:13:53,230
water or what caused the waves on the

313
00:13:59,910 --> 00:13:57,520
surface and then main element of this

314
00:14:01,830 --> 00:13:59,920
though is that all the way at the very

315
00:14:04,230 --> 00:14:01,840
bottom of the cave at the very center of

316
00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:04,240
it here's this hole and through this

317
00:14:09,060 --> 00:14:07,450
hole comes this light and it's all

318
00:14:12,570 --> 00:14:09,070
metaphorical what comes through the hole

319
00:14:16,050 --> 00:14:12,580
is consciousness itself and this then is

320
00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:16,060
a model of what yoga and the idea of

321
00:14:22,020 --> 00:14:19,330
what yoga is is freeing yourself turning

322
00:14:24,030 --> 00:14:22,030
around from that screen moving through

323
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:24,040
the cave finding that hole that

324
00:14:29,280 --> 00:14:27,130
consciousness comes through passing

325
00:14:30,990 --> 00:14:29,290
through that hole so in the diagram here

326
00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:31,000
the hole is called the Bindu which is

327
00:14:36,750 --> 00:14:33,010
the term that comes out of as meri

328
00:14:39,690 --> 00:14:36,760
Shiva's 'm you know that's from around

329
00:14:42,210 --> 00:14:39,700
900 AD very sophisticated way to think

330
00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:42,220
and he passed through the Bindu and

331
00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:44,650
bingo you enter the real world the

332
00:14:51,330 --> 00:14:48,430
absolute that's the analog of leaving

333
00:14:53,340 --> 00:14:51,340
the cave Plato's cave and you enter the

334
00:14:55,950 --> 00:14:53,350
real world the world of reality which

335
00:14:57,810 --> 00:14:55,960
there is a number of different names for

336
00:15:01,050 --> 00:14:57,820
it in Hinduism they tend to call it

337
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:01,060
Brahman or in throughout the book I call

338
00:15:05,310 --> 00:15:03,250
it the absolute because that's probably

339
00:15:09,390 --> 00:15:05,320
the best term our infinity is another

340
00:15:12,780 --> 00:15:09,400
good parent views or God all of them are

341
00:15:15,690 --> 00:15:12,790
synonymous so this is an idea of the

342
00:15:17,670 --> 00:15:15,700
nature of what we are it's a model based

343
00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:17,680
on yoga based on the teachings of yoga

344
00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:20,410
and how it explains how yoga works

345
00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:23,530
yeah touch on a manual cot because I

346
00:15:27,450 --> 00:15:24,850
think there's an interesting connection

347
00:15:30,660 --> 00:15:27,460
there he's not a yogi and he's another

348
00:15:32,790 --> 00:15:30,670
guy he's saying the same thing in a way

349
00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:32,800
that maybe we can better understand it

350
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:34,570
yeah through his intellect he understood

351
00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:35,890
so one of the things this is something

352
00:15:39,660 --> 00:15:37,570
actually I teach it at pants

353
00:15:42,060 --> 00:15:39,670
neurophysiology course I'll be in this

354
00:15:44,430 --> 00:15:42,070
year and one of the things I do is I

355
00:15:46,590 --> 00:15:44,440
introduce the students through the these

356
00:15:49,350 --> 00:15:46,600
philosophical concepts like idealism and

357
00:15:51,210 --> 00:15:49,360
materialism and Buddhism and the

358
00:15:53,700 --> 00:15:51,220
different philosophical points of the

359
00:15:55,170 --> 00:15:53,710
mind because they're all basically

360
00:16:02,340 --> 00:15:55,180
trained to be materialists without

361
00:16:04,710 --> 00:16:02,350
knowing it and so basically what did he

362
00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:04,720
was idealist that idealism says that the

363
00:16:08,910 --> 00:16:06,310
world exists in our mind that there is

364
00:16:10,500 --> 00:16:08,920
no world outside of our mind and it

365
00:16:13,860 --> 00:16:10,510
really it's the actually the most

366
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:13,870
logical thing because what we perceive

367
00:16:19,020 --> 00:16:16,210
with our senses we we understand it only

368
00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:19,030
as through our mind it's all purely

369
00:16:22,890 --> 00:16:21,190
mental the world we perceive is purely

370
00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:22,900
mental now we've talked about that a

371
00:16:27,990 --> 00:16:25,510
bunch on this clot on this show but I

372
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:28,000
want to go back and just hit that point

373
00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:31,710
one more time because on one hand it's

374
00:16:38,670 --> 00:16:36,310
so self evident that we kind of have a

375
00:16:42,060 --> 00:16:38,680
natural way of either brushing past it

376
00:16:45,660 --> 00:16:42,070
or recall it recoiling from it but what

377
00:16:49,530 --> 00:16:45,670
you're saying is everything we could

378
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:49,540
possibly experience is experienced in

379
00:16:55,260 --> 00:16:52,210
our mind absolutely you're right it's

380
00:16:57,120 --> 00:16:55,270
just so unbelievably obvious you you

381
00:16:58,440 --> 00:16:57,130
once you get it the light bulb goes on

382
00:16:59,130 --> 00:16:58,450
and you're just like oh my god how could

383
00:17:01,800 --> 00:16:59,140
it be otherwise

384
00:17:05,220 --> 00:17:01,810
or you recoil from it because it's just

385
00:17:07,110 --> 00:17:05,230
so alien to you on first hearing and you

386
00:17:09,510 --> 00:17:07,120
know if you have that reaction over time

387
00:17:12,630 --> 00:17:09,520
you'll initially we dissolve yourself to

388
00:17:15,179 --> 00:17:12,640
because there's no way out of hold on

389
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:15,189
nope no weed no absolutely not true

390
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:18,010
right there's all these folks running

391
00:17:25,530 --> 00:17:21,850
around measuring stuff believing that

392
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:25,540
the reality that they're experiencing is

393
00:17:31,770 --> 00:17:28,930
real they are not thinking of those

394
00:17:33,570 --> 00:17:31,780
that's quite never went on they never

395
00:17:35,550 --> 00:17:33,580
got it they never understood that what

396
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:35,560
being said so so let's make sure we

397
00:17:41,570 --> 00:17:37,570
understand as I'm kind of ranting on

398
00:17:45,120 --> 00:17:41,580
there I mean how does not fully

399
00:17:49,260 --> 00:17:45,130
realizing that or accepting it manifest

400
00:17:51,930 --> 00:17:49,270
itself in the world that we live in and

401
00:17:57,170 --> 00:17:51,940
in particular we can talk about science

402
00:18:00,090 --> 00:17:57,180
if you want how does it it's basically

403
00:18:02,550 --> 00:18:00,100
Vanderloo called it fence realism of

404
00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:02,560
formative sense realism other people use

405
00:18:06,660 --> 00:18:04,960
that term - so where you perceive the

406
00:18:09,170 --> 00:18:06,670
world with your senses and you believe

407
00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:09,180
that it is out there outside of you

408
00:18:15,060 --> 00:18:11,710
right so the stuff that you see on the

409
00:18:17,850 --> 00:18:15,070
screen the world the trees the clouds

410
00:18:21,030 --> 00:18:17,860
the other people the planet stars all

411
00:18:23,370 --> 00:18:21,040
that that's sense realism and you

412
00:18:26,790 --> 00:18:23,380
believe that it is exactly as it appears

413
00:18:28,850 --> 00:18:26,800
in your awareness you completely ignore

414
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:28,860
the fact that your awareness is

415
00:18:34,860 --> 00:18:31,450
containing those things but those things

416
00:18:37,220 --> 00:18:34,870
exist only in your awareness when I

417
00:18:40,070 --> 00:18:37,230
introduce is a way of kind of

418
00:18:44,430 --> 00:18:40,080
jump-starting that whole thing is the

419
00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:44,440
the shut up and calculate thing right so

420
00:18:48,540 --> 00:18:46,690
it's not really naked you know shut up

421
00:18:50,460 --> 00:18:48,550
and calculate actually in the

422
00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:50,470
intervening time since we've been - you

423
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:51,730
know since the last time I talked to you

424
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:53,370
have come to appreciate it in a way that

425
00:18:59,250 --> 00:18:56,770
attitude is kind of humbling itself

426
00:19:01,140 --> 00:18:59,260
before what we're talking about right

427
00:19:06,530 --> 00:19:01,150
because I had kind of quantum mechanics

428
00:19:09,690 --> 00:19:06,540
and quantum mechanics presents an

429
00:19:12,020 --> 00:19:09,700
apprehensive of the world that's

430
00:19:18,210 --> 00:19:12,030
completely inconsistent with what we

431
00:19:19,740 --> 00:19:18,220
perceive and so the logic is a we don't

432
00:19:23,490 --> 00:19:19,750
know everything our senses are not

433
00:19:26,850 --> 00:19:23,500
everything and whatever's going on this

434
00:19:29,940 --> 00:19:26,860
works and so just shut up and calculate

435
00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:29,950
well I agree with I agree with part of

436
00:19:36,510 --> 00:19:33,090
that but if they made that first

437
00:19:38,340 --> 00:19:36,520
philosophical leap or they became

438
00:19:41,940 --> 00:19:38,350
grounded in it then I could agree with

439
00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:41,950
you if they fully embrace the we really

440
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:44,170
don't know what the hell is going on but

441
00:19:46,790 --> 00:19:46,330
what I would say to that is I think the

442
00:19:49,370 --> 00:19:46,800
people

443
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:49,380
that invented that viewpoint for example

444
00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:51,090
niels bohr the more I've learned about

445
00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:53,490
Niels Bohr yeah but not Richard Hyndman

446
00:19:58,340 --> 00:19:55,770
not Richard Fineman I don't think

447
00:20:01,250 --> 00:19:58,350
Richard Fineman really got that at that

448
00:20:03,710 --> 00:20:01,260
level I mean he because no but then what

449
00:20:06,470 --> 00:20:03,720
happened is it just became a ritual and

450
00:20:08,020 --> 00:20:06,480
people mindlessly repeated it exactly

451
00:20:09,650 --> 00:20:08,030
and then it just became another

452
00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:09,660
institution kind of like

453
00:20:15,110 --> 00:20:13,140
institutionalized religion there's

454
00:20:18,140 --> 00:20:15,120
there's two problems with shutup and

455
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:18,150
calculate one as you've just described

456
00:20:25,190 --> 00:20:21,810
it can it can mesmerize you into

457
00:20:27,620 --> 00:20:25,200
forgetting the philosophical quandary

458
00:20:28,880 --> 00:20:27,630
that you were attempting to get out of

459
00:20:31,460 --> 00:20:28,890
with the whole thing

460
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:31,470
and number two along the lines that

461
00:20:38,870 --> 00:20:34,770
you've kind of talked about too you can

462
00:20:41,420 --> 00:20:38,880
become romanced with the tools that it

463
00:20:43,490 --> 00:20:41,430
creates so you don't right now right now

464
00:20:44,990 --> 00:20:43,500
we're like right rectly over the center

465
00:20:48,220 --> 00:20:45,000
of a concept I used throughout the whole

466
00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:48,230
book there's one of my knives or donek

467
00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:50,490
booth points of what I call

468
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:53,310
philosophical pygmies man in particular

469
00:20:57,770 --> 00:20:55,130
is meant to refer to modern physics

470
00:21:00,350 --> 00:20:57,780
right I love modern physics I think it's

471
00:21:02,030 --> 00:21:00,360
one of the greatest contributions of

472
00:21:05,180 --> 00:21:02,040
Western science and what's happened over

473
00:21:06,500 --> 00:21:05,190
the centuries is generated a large part

474
00:21:09,170 --> 00:21:06,510
of the population out there right now

475
00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:09,180
piccalilli with foolish laymen oriented

476
00:21:13,610 --> 00:21:11,910
stuff their philosophical pity not

477
00:21:16,220 --> 00:21:13,620
Einstein they're not Schrodinger they're

478
00:21:19,360 --> 00:21:16,230
not bore not Newton they're not even

479
00:21:21,530 --> 00:21:19,370
Galileo those guys were all driven by

480
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:21,540
really great stuff and one of the things

481
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:24,330
I do in the book as I contrast Herrmann

482
00:21:29,030 --> 00:21:26,250
file who was in my opinion one of the

483
00:21:31,250 --> 00:21:29,040
last really great physicists because I

484
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:31,260
mean he was super towering he was better

485
00:21:36,590 --> 00:21:33,170
than Einstein better than Schrodinger

486
00:21:40,490 --> 00:21:36,600
because he mixed philosophy religion

487
00:21:43,310 --> 00:21:40,500
math and science and to him a beautiful

488
00:21:46,490 --> 00:21:43,320
harmony of mathematical physics proved

489
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:46,500
that God created everything

490
00:21:51,340 --> 00:21:47,930
there was the last time you heard

491
00:21:53,630 --> 00:21:51,350
prominent important physicists say that

492
00:21:56,990 --> 00:21:53,640
well how about this how about just

493
00:21:59,570 --> 00:21:57,000
contrasting what you just said with you

494
00:22:02,810 --> 00:21:59,580
know one of our science elites Steven

495
00:22:05,510 --> 00:22:02,820
Hawkings who says philosophy is dead

496
00:22:12,110 --> 00:22:05,520
write philosophical papers right there

497
00:22:14,330 --> 00:22:12,120
this big with respect to yeah yeah I

498
00:22:16,550 --> 00:22:14,340
don't even know if he's a pygmy anymore

499
00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:16,560
when he says philosophy is dead he's

500
00:22:22,310 --> 00:22:19,770
kind of so arrogant yeah well an

501
00:22:23,090 --> 00:22:22,320
arrogance a sign of being ignorant and

502
00:22:26,090 --> 00:22:23,100
that's all it is

503
00:22:27,980 --> 00:22:26,100
and so I make I have no compunctions I

504
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:27,990
pull no punches I smack the

505
00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:30,090
philosophical peas around every chance I

506
00:22:33,950 --> 00:22:31,650
can because they deserve it they're

507
00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:33,960
stupid you know one of I've spent a lot

508
00:22:38,690 --> 00:22:35,850
of time thinking about this how did the

509
00:22:41,330 --> 00:22:38,700
generation come about and it relates to

510
00:22:45,050 --> 00:22:41,340
a lot of changes in you know that really

511
00:22:47,630 --> 00:22:45,060
took off in the 20s and 30s with you see

512
00:22:50,980 --> 00:22:47,640
Cuba start you see it was modern

513
00:22:53,090 --> 00:22:50,990
philosophy there was just this general

514
00:22:55,010 --> 00:22:53,100
generation and if you look at the route

515
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:55,020
where did that whole thing come from I

516
00:22:59,810 --> 00:22:57,120
honestly believe and I say this in my

517
00:23:01,790 --> 00:22:59,820
writings that came from hunt because I

518
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:01,800
after Cod there was nothing left but he

519
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:06,000
said the world presents itself is in our

520
00:23:10,970 --> 00:23:09,570
mind we can make the assumption that

521
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:10,980
there's something outside they're

522
00:23:15,080 --> 00:23:12,930
putting the presentation in our mind

523
00:23:16,850 --> 00:23:15,090
that's the transcendental we'll never

524
00:23:18,740 --> 00:23:16,860
know it's inaccessible because the only

525
00:23:21,230 --> 00:23:18,750
way we know is through our mind I mean

526
00:23:22,940 --> 00:23:21,240
he was uh he was D turning point in

527
00:23:26,150 --> 00:23:22,950
Western philosophy there's no question

528
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:26,160
and he formulated he wouldn't when did

529
00:23:32,540 --> 00:23:28,650
he write his pretty book I think it was

530
00:23:33,830 --> 00:23:32,550
published in 1774 somewhere rather

531
00:23:36,170 --> 00:23:33,840
pretty close to when the American

532
00:23:39,170 --> 00:23:36,180
Revolution happened it was a revolution

533
00:23:42,620 --> 00:23:39,180
in Western thinking so it was kind of

534
00:23:45,379 --> 00:23:42,630
Court according with the time and in

535
00:23:47,180 --> 00:23:45,389
that he said that

536
00:23:49,129 --> 00:23:47,190
only hypothesize that a real world

537
00:23:51,109 --> 00:23:49,139
exists we can never know it for real

538
00:23:53,479 --> 00:23:51,119
because that world is outside of our

539
00:23:55,430 --> 00:23:53,489
mind and all we can know is what is in

540
00:23:59,629 --> 00:23:55,440
our mind so how can we know it's

541
00:24:01,579 --> 00:23:59,639
literally a contradiction to think that

542
00:24:04,369 --> 00:24:01,589
you can know something that's outside

543
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:04,379
your mind inside your mind you just it

544
00:24:07,879 --> 00:24:06,450
makes no sense it's a contradiction and

545
00:24:09,169 --> 00:24:07,889
so that thing outside of our mind that

546
00:24:12,619 --> 00:24:09,179
we can never know he called the

547
00:24:14,599 --> 00:24:12,629
transcendental and so what what's

548
00:24:17,779 --> 00:24:14,609
interesting and how it ties into yoga is

549
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:17,789
yoga is the method to not know the

550
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:19,200
transcendental but to be the

551
00:24:22,940 --> 00:24:20,129
transcendental

552
00:24:26,239 --> 00:24:22,950
yoga teaches you how to escape this trap

553
00:24:28,489 --> 00:24:26,249
akan identified of being in our mind and

554
00:24:30,979 --> 00:24:28,499
it allows us to enter the transcendental

555
00:24:33,699 --> 00:24:30,989
and to be the transcendental that they

556
00:24:36,079 --> 00:24:33,709
call of various things nirvana in yoga

557
00:24:39,849 --> 00:24:36,089
sutras is called Cavalia which means

558
00:24:43,489 --> 00:24:39,859
alone it's the one the one that's alone

559
00:24:46,940 --> 00:24:43,499
think of that or however you want to say

560
00:24:48,769 --> 00:24:46,950
it okay all right let's let's leave that

561
00:24:50,659 --> 00:24:48,779
it there because I'm already I'm gonna I

562
00:24:54,019 --> 00:24:50,669
got a million things I'd love to talk to

563
00:24:57,199 --> 00:24:54,029
you about talk to this Don talk to this

564
00:25:00,879 --> 00:24:57,209
because I love the way you lay out and

565
00:25:03,529 --> 00:25:00,889
lay bare academia as it's currently

566
00:25:06,289 --> 00:25:03,539
misunderstood science is naive and

567
00:25:08,180 --> 00:25:06,299
humanities are bitter and I think that's

568
00:25:10,369 --> 00:25:08,190
really kind of a cool thing to talk

569
00:25:13,069 --> 00:25:10,379
about both because both aspects of it

570
00:25:16,729 --> 00:25:13,079
because if you don't understand both you

571
00:25:19,299 --> 00:25:16,739
don't understand the dilemma that's

572
00:25:21,979 --> 00:25:19,309
right well you know that idea comes from

573
00:25:24,619 --> 00:25:21,989
writings of an author from the 1950s

574
00:25:26,269 --> 00:25:24,629
named CP snow who was engineer who wrote

575
00:25:27,889 --> 00:25:26,279
about a thing called the cultures that

576
00:25:30,619 --> 00:25:27,899
even by the 50s had become very apparent

577
00:25:32,899 --> 00:25:30,629
and one hand you had the sciences and

578
00:25:35,089 --> 00:25:32,909
their worldview and then you had the

579
00:25:37,129 --> 00:25:35,099
humanities who were completely divorced

580
00:25:39,649 --> 00:25:37,139
from the sciences so academia itself

581
00:25:42,079 --> 00:25:39,659
invited along and they never

582
00:25:44,629 --> 00:25:42,089
communicated with each other and if you

583
00:25:48,889 --> 00:25:44,639
trace this backwards again it's my

584
00:25:52,310 --> 00:25:48,899
assertion that the vision started with

585
00:25:54,619 --> 00:25:52,320
that that was the turning point of all

586
00:25:56,479 --> 00:25:54,629
of this because I er you know science

587
00:25:59,340 --> 00:25:56,489
used to be called natural philosophy and

588
00:26:01,320 --> 00:25:59,350
through the 16 and 1700s

589
00:26:03,090 --> 00:26:01,330
scientists were not only highly

590
00:26:05,250 --> 00:26:03,100
religious but they were very adept in

591
00:26:08,070 --> 00:26:05,260
philosophy they contributed looking

592
00:26:09,870 --> 00:26:08,080
Leibniz Leibniz is a great example he

593
00:26:12,690 --> 00:26:09,880
contributed so much to philosophy and

594
00:26:15,150 --> 00:26:12,700
science Newton too in his own although

595
00:26:19,140 --> 00:26:15,160
he was much inferior to my past I always

596
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:19,150
have to slide in there like this guy but

597
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:22,090
by the time of Conte they had separated

598
00:26:30,630 --> 00:26:27,730
and con's idealism humanities now became

599
00:26:33,299 --> 00:26:30,640
totally inward focused right there was

600
00:26:35,430 --> 00:26:33,309
no it was all just human creation period

601
00:26:37,470 --> 00:26:35,440
and then the science is literally just

602
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:37,480
ignored cause let me fast forward a bit

603
00:26:41,909 --> 00:26:39,730
because one of the ways that I think

604
00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:41,919
what you're saying will resonate with

605
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:45,250
people is the word arrogance that you've

606
00:26:49,529 --> 00:26:47,710
just used a minute ago were ignorant

607
00:26:51,659 --> 00:26:49,539
when it comes to the part of science and

608
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:51,669
I like the way that you put it is it's

609
00:26:58,470 --> 00:26:54,490
not so much that they've created this

610
00:27:01,529 --> 00:26:58,480
obviously flawed model of reality being

611
00:27:03,360 --> 00:27:01,539
outside but that they've turned it into

612
00:27:05,340 --> 00:27:03,370
an echo chamber where they really

613
00:27:08,340 --> 00:27:05,350
believe this [\h__\h] themselves this

614
00:27:12,029 --> 00:27:08,350
[\h__\h] and it becomes a Dogma so their

615
00:27:14,370 --> 00:27:12,039
naivete was getting past the shutup and

616
00:27:16,230 --> 00:27:14,380
calculate which is useful for building

617
00:27:18,779 --> 00:27:16,240
certain things but then turning it into

618
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:18,789
a religion scientism and saying it's

619
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:21,850
true but the way you contrast I love the

620
00:27:28,230 --> 00:27:25,510
way that you say humanities are bitter

621
00:27:31,230 --> 00:27:28,240
because so the humanities sit over there

622
00:27:33,450 --> 00:27:31,240
and they say well as you point out well

623
00:27:37,289 --> 00:27:33,460
at least we understand that there is

624
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:37,299
such a thing as culture society but an

625
00:27:40,830 --> 00:27:39,130
idealism right I mean ideal the

626
00:27:42,419 --> 00:27:40,840
philosophy is now squarely in the

627
00:27:45,180 --> 00:27:42,429
humanities it's no longer part of

628
00:27:47,310 --> 00:27:45,190
science and so yeah these people they've

629
00:27:49,409 --> 00:27:47,320
been pushed out of the center because

630
00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:49,419
through most of Western history the

631
00:27:53,070 --> 00:27:51,039
humanities were the center right the

632
00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:53,080
study of language the study of arts the

633
00:27:57,659 --> 00:27:54,880
study of philosophy and science was just

634
00:28:00,240 --> 00:27:57,669
a side branch but now we say we say what

635
00:28:02,909 --> 00:28:00,250
hey philosophy department where's your

636
00:28:05,070 --> 00:28:02,919
freaking iPhone where's your iPhone show

637
00:28:07,770 --> 00:28:05,080
me your iPhone you haven't given me

638
00:28:10,049 --> 00:28:07,780
anything so there's writer that's cite

639
00:28:11,710 --> 00:28:10,059
in the you know in a scientist just has

640
00:28:13,330 --> 00:28:11,720
an attitude of

641
00:28:15,159 --> 00:28:13,340
what you have to say you walk off the

642
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:15,169
roof and you'll gravity will pull you to

643
00:28:19,029 --> 00:28:16,610
the ground until you just like it will

644
00:28:21,159 --> 00:28:19,039
everybody else oh shut up that's kind of

645
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:21,169
the scientists added you didn't it has

646
00:28:25,029 --> 00:28:23,090
it's made humanities very bitter because

647
00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:25,039
they're no longer the center of action

648
00:28:30,010 --> 00:28:27,110
in the world right Kyra whole world is

649
00:28:31,450 --> 00:28:30,020
driven by science and technology and so

650
00:28:32,740 --> 00:28:31,460
these people what have they done they've

651
00:28:34,630 --> 00:28:32,750
they've lost their mind they've

652
00:28:36,010 --> 00:28:34,640
literally gone insane and you can see

653
00:28:41,740 --> 00:28:36,020
this beginning at the turn of the

654
00:28:43,870 --> 00:28:41,750
century with Russell and yeah Bertrand

655
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:43,880
Russell me he's the beginning of the

656
00:28:49,390 --> 00:28:46,850
insanity of philosophy that guy I just I

657
00:28:51,460 --> 00:28:49,400
really don't like him very much and he

658
00:28:54,370 --> 00:28:51,470
failed at everything he failed that math

659
00:28:57,669 --> 00:28:54,380
he made up he was a bad philosopher he

660
00:28:59,740 --> 00:28:57,679
basically he thought he he he literally

661
00:29:02,950 --> 00:28:59,750
just asserted that idealism is wrong

662
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:02,960
because up to the brown you know the

663
00:29:10,659 --> 00:29:07,610
year 1900 idealism dominated philosophy

664
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:10,669
because it's in arguable if you did it

665
00:29:16,450 --> 00:29:13,850
you can argue with idealism but Richard

666
00:29:19,390 --> 00:29:16,460
Russell just said some quote of him that

667
00:29:21,279 --> 00:29:19,400
I read where he said it was just so felt

668
00:29:23,289 --> 00:29:21,289
so liberated to run through the green

669
00:29:26,620 --> 00:29:23,299
grass of the field realizing that green

670
00:29:28,750 --> 00:29:26,630
grass is real look what is this its

671
00:29:33,870 --> 00:29:28,760
emotionalism it's like the stupid

672
00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:33,880
emotionalism it gave a damn bro and

673
00:29:37,419 --> 00:29:36,110
stupidity became synonymous with

674
00:29:39,630 --> 00:29:37,429
philosophy and then you had

675
00:29:41,980 --> 00:29:39,640
post-modernism structuralism

676
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:41,990
philosophies that dominated up till now

677
00:29:48,340 --> 00:29:45,770
where it's just absurd beyond belief you

678
00:29:52,270 --> 00:29:48,350
know what philosophy has become is a

679
00:29:53,799 --> 00:29:52,280
joke it's a real insult if the

680
00:29:55,750 --> 00:29:53,809
scientists are an insult to their

681
00:29:57,850 --> 00:29:55,760
heritage the philosophy the modern

682
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:57,860
philosophy is a even bigger insult

683
00:30:02,649 --> 00:30:00,559
imperative and we're just in a mess

684
00:30:05,799 --> 00:30:02,659
right now it's like a Gordian knot and

685
00:30:07,899 --> 00:30:05,809
it just needs to explode it really again

686
00:30:10,029 --> 00:30:07,909
a certain level though this is the

687
00:30:13,270 --> 00:30:10,039
beauty of being all this in the context

688
00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:13,280
of yoga because when you learn yoga you

689
00:30:16,779 --> 00:30:15,110
just this it comes back to the yamen

690
00:30:19,149 --> 00:30:16,789
jnana this is just the way of the world

691
00:30:22,060 --> 00:30:19,159
it's always rocking back and forth

692
00:30:24,470 --> 00:30:22,070
there's always stuff erupting and

693
00:30:27,049 --> 00:30:24,480
blowing up and going round and round and

694
00:30:29,090 --> 00:30:27,059
way of the world then Yoga is about you

695
00:30:32,690 --> 00:30:29,100
know turning away from the looking in

696
00:30:34,850 --> 00:30:32,700
trying to find that Center trying to

697
00:30:37,190 --> 00:30:34,860
find the source of all of this stuff and

698
00:30:39,530 --> 00:30:37,200
not you just turn your back away from

699
00:30:42,549 --> 00:30:39,540
that for a while that's part of yoga you

700
00:30:45,919 --> 00:30:42,559
turn your back that's coming you you

701
00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:45,929
know you know you did a nice run down

702
00:30:50,570 --> 00:30:47,850
there of some of the problems with

703
00:30:51,020 --> 00:30:50,580
science I wanted to bring to your

704
00:30:54,049 --> 00:30:51,030
attention

705
00:30:55,430 --> 00:30:54,059
Henry Bauer who you know and before the

706
00:30:56,690 --> 00:30:55,440
show you're gonna know we're gonna talk

707
00:31:00,289 --> 00:30:56,700
a little bit about Henry Bauer

708
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:00,299
I love great I think he's I think he's

709
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:02,250
quite a special guy and one of the

710
00:31:08,510 --> 00:31:05,610
things that I like about his explanation

711
00:31:12,830 --> 00:31:08,520
for the dilemma that we find ourselves

712
00:31:16,190 --> 00:31:12,840
in with regard to science is he explains

713
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:16,200
it from a market forces standpoint and I

714
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:17,970
wonder if you had any thoughts on that

715
00:31:22,130 --> 00:31:20,370
especially since you're right in the

716
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:22,140
middle of that and live that on a day to

717
00:31:29,419 --> 00:31:25,490
day basis and that is so Henry's basic

718
00:31:32,450 --> 00:31:29,429
argument is hey in the 1950s it's after

719
00:31:35,510 --> 00:31:32,460
world war two some science has been

720
00:31:37,850 --> 00:31:35,520
instrumental in helping us win the war

721
00:31:40,250 --> 00:31:37,860
if you will so we're gonna plow all this

722
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:40,260
money into science and what we wind up

723
00:31:46,850 --> 00:31:42,720
isn't what we wind up with is an

724
00:31:48,650 --> 00:31:46,860
oversupply of scientists well you have

725
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:48,660
that angle but you know Henry's got this

726
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:50,730
viewpoint that he like a sociological

727
00:31:56,539 --> 00:31:53,850
view started the very earliest days of

728
00:31:58,549 --> 00:31:56,549
science up till now and variable he

729
00:32:00,830 --> 00:31:58,559
focuses on his conflict of interest

730
00:32:02,390 --> 00:32:00,840
right so in the earliest days like we

731
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:02,400
mentioned live Nets and Newton and those

732
00:32:07,250 --> 00:32:04,320
as they just did science because it came

733
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:07,260
out of them were natural right we mozart

734
00:32:12,590 --> 00:32:10,650
made music live nets Galileo Kepler all

735
00:32:15,350 --> 00:32:12,600
these earlier scientists that came out

736
00:32:17,330 --> 00:32:15,360
of them they were natural and then by

737
00:32:19,820 --> 00:32:17,340
the 1800s it had started to become

738
00:32:21,950 --> 00:32:19,830
institutionalized and that's what the

739
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:21,960
rise of the universities and university

740
00:32:28,430 --> 00:32:26,130
sponsored site and then that led who

741
00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:28,440
could look at Einstein right I mean that

742
00:32:31,430 --> 00:32:29,760
was the whole goal to get into

743
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:31,440
university had to work at a patent

744
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:33,090
office for a while before you actually a

745
00:32:38,450 --> 00:32:35,730
real job as a university professor

746
00:32:41,060 --> 00:32:38,460
alright that takes us up to 1900 and

747
00:32:44,660 --> 00:32:41,070
then with all their effort and the

748
00:32:46,850 --> 00:32:44,670
invention of the atomic bomb it all in

749
00:32:48,110 --> 00:32:46,860
government's took a huge interest in it

750
00:32:50,750 --> 00:32:48,120
and it became sponsored by the

751
00:32:52,550 --> 00:32:50,760
government and and then what you're

752
00:32:54,290 --> 00:32:52,560
seeing is this increasing conflict of

753
00:32:57,380 --> 00:32:54,300
interest so when you're a university

754
00:33:00,200 --> 00:32:57,390
professor so it's an idea of keeping

755
00:33:02,630 --> 00:33:00,210
your job you have science to keep your

756
00:33:04,580 --> 00:33:02,640
job right but then they're still COPE

757
00:33:07,010 --> 00:33:04,590
aesthetic right there was economic

758
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:07,020
interest but you're still you're gonna

759
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:08,370
lose your job if you lose your

760
00:33:12,110 --> 00:33:10,170
credibility so you still want to do good

761
00:33:14,330 --> 00:33:12,120
science but when it became a

762
00:33:17,330 --> 00:33:14,340
government-sponsored thing and highly

763
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:17,340
highly commercialized that's when the

764
00:33:23,030 --> 00:33:20,610
conflict of interests became negative

765
00:33:25,610 --> 00:33:23,040
very negative where you would literally

766
00:33:27,350 --> 00:33:25,620
just cheat all right you just cheat and

767
00:33:29,450 --> 00:33:27,360
make or you would get into it solely to

768
00:33:32,380 --> 00:33:29,460
make money and you no longer were a

769
00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:32,390
natural scientist at all you did err I

770
00:33:38,060 --> 00:33:35,310
mean those are there's probably some

771
00:33:39,950 --> 00:33:38,070
kind of continuum there because well it

772
00:33:41,630 --> 00:33:39,960
is it's exactly how he explains it

773
00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:41,640
that's historical continuum that's

774
00:33:48,170 --> 00:33:43,110
gotten worse and worse over time and

775
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:48,180
today now it's uh you know that's the

776
00:33:50,750 --> 00:33:49,650
big part of it and then coupled with

777
00:33:53,630 --> 00:33:50,760
what you just said about the

778
00:33:56,450 --> 00:33:53,640
demographics of this huge population of

779
00:33:58,460 --> 00:33:56,460
people that are all competing you know

780
00:34:00,800 --> 00:33:58,470
this is reflected in where we started

781
00:34:03,260 --> 00:34:00,810
with NIH France but I do see this in my

782
00:34:07,310 --> 00:34:03,270
everyday life so the NIH grant it's

783
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:07,320
ordinarily competitive and is much much

784
00:34:10,790 --> 00:34:10,290
more about keeping your job and moving

785
00:34:13,310 --> 00:34:10,800
up

786
00:34:14,150 --> 00:34:13,320
promotional ladder than it is about food

787
00:34:17,240 --> 00:34:14,160
science

788
00:34:19,790 --> 00:34:17,250
ok so heard of that so once after I got

789
00:34:21,350 --> 00:34:19,800
tenured and I was able to really kick

790
00:34:23,150 --> 00:34:21,360
back and start to think about this and

791
00:34:26,750 --> 00:34:23,160
devised the theory that I explained you

792
00:34:29,180 --> 00:34:26,760
earlier now I I submitted that to NIH

793
00:34:31,970 --> 00:34:29,190
two years ago and it got strongly

794
00:34:34,850 --> 00:34:31,980
rejected I mean insultingly rejected

795
00:34:36,650 --> 00:34:34,860
with just shocking it was so a far

796
00:34:37,940 --> 00:34:36,660
afield from the mainstream and so at

797
00:34:39,940 --> 00:34:37,950
that point you see that it be from

798
00:34:42,620 --> 00:34:39,950
threatening these other people because

799
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:42,630
I'm offering a completely alternative

800
00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:44,370
viewpoint that will wipe out their way

801
00:34:48,340 --> 00:34:46,110
of thinking they've spent their whole

802
00:34:49,770 --> 00:34:48,350
career studying this alphabet soup

803
00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:49,780
molecule or the

804
00:34:55,890 --> 00:34:52,720
alphabet soup molecule and you know say

805
00:34:58,950 --> 00:34:55,900
this is why sells I am a stroke fertile

806
00:35:01,470 --> 00:34:58,960
and you know so there is a tremendous

807
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:01,480
amount of social inertia and resistance

808
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:04,090
and the interesting thing too about it

809
00:35:07,590 --> 00:35:05,650
is it's all very much instinctive

810
00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:07,600
animals instinctively protected

811
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:09,310
territory this is not like if you hate

812
00:35:12,720 --> 00:35:10,810
humanities people where they've read a

813
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:12,730
lot of philosophy and social science and

814
00:35:16,620 --> 00:35:14,770
they know the factors that are working

815
00:35:20,190 --> 00:35:16,630
here these are just people working from

816
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:20,200
gut instinct right but if we can

817
00:35:28,050 --> 00:35:23,890
interject a little bit of realism in the

818
00:35:31,290 --> 00:35:28,060
form of conspiracy and conspiratorial

819
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:31,300
forces this gives greater and greater

820
00:35:38,430 --> 00:35:35,050
power to the people who are one level up

821
00:35:40,770 --> 00:35:38,440
the control system right so if I if I

822
00:35:43,050 --> 00:35:40,780
have all the rats running through the

823
00:35:46,350 --> 00:35:43,060
mazes just that just the way that I want

824
00:35:49,290 --> 00:35:46,360
and I'm the one who has the cheese man I

825
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:49,300
have more and more power as they're warm

826
00:35:54,830 --> 00:35:51,850
or the rats I mean one of the ways you

827
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:54,840
know to fill that in with specific so

828
00:35:58,860 --> 00:35:57,850
NIH grant that's tax money right the

829
00:36:01,320 --> 00:35:58,870
funnels through the federal government

830
00:36:03,330 --> 00:36:01,330
we all pay everybody in the country pays

831
00:36:04,890 --> 00:36:03,340
their federal taxes it goes in credit

832
00:36:07,110 --> 00:36:04,900
that goes in the federal budget you know

833
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:07,120
age thirty billion dollars a year of

834
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:10,090
federal money in fact and then that gets

835
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:12,250
VDOT between the administrative costs of

836
00:36:18,270 --> 00:36:15,850
giving out a plan and so those grants

837
00:36:20,910 --> 00:36:18,280
are federal they're subsidized by the

838
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:20,920
whole society but the main beneficiaries

839
00:36:25,950 --> 00:36:23,650
of it are biotech industry and the

840
00:36:27,720 --> 00:36:25,960
pharmaceutical companies right because

841
00:36:31,230 --> 00:36:27,730
who care do you and your grandma care

842
00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:31,240
about my research no only companies that

843
00:36:34,910 --> 00:36:33,040
are gonna make drugs or make medical

844
00:36:40,220 --> 00:36:34,920
devices so you've got big companies like

845
00:36:42,720 --> 00:36:40,230
Fisher and Sigma and it's just giant

846
00:36:45,390 --> 00:36:42,730
suppliers and then it's also the sole

847
00:36:48,150 --> 00:36:45,400
not of course me and my grandmother care

848
00:36:51,210 --> 00:36:48,160
about your research research the point

849
00:36:54,750 --> 00:36:51,220
really is that we are not represented in

850
00:36:57,720 --> 00:36:54,760
that at the table in terms of letting

851
00:37:00,600 --> 00:36:57,730
are having our force having our voice be

852
00:37:03,010 --> 00:37:00,610
heard because that's the way that I

853
00:37:04,540 --> 00:37:03,020
think that's that's probably we

854
00:37:06,490 --> 00:37:04,550
I mean but what you care about is the

855
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:06,500
result you don't care about the details

856
00:37:09,730 --> 00:37:08,000
I just want the result you want you know

857
00:37:12,460 --> 00:37:09,740
something when somebody has a stroke

858
00:37:14,490 --> 00:37:12,470
that they get better instead of as it is

859
00:37:17,380 --> 00:37:14,500
now were they just nothing happened

860
00:37:19,090 --> 00:37:17,390
stroke and their brain dies so what is

861
00:37:21,820 --> 00:37:19,100
the future for your research you are

862
00:37:23,790 --> 00:37:21,830
going forward right oh yeah I've started

863
00:37:25,690 --> 00:37:23,800
to apply actually just submitted to a

864
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:25,700
foundation I've been submitting to

865
00:37:31,060 --> 00:37:28,610
foundation hoping that maybe we can find

866
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:31,070
more open-minded stuff there I'm not

867
00:37:36,850 --> 00:37:33,290
super optimum realistic I don't want to

868
00:37:39,490 --> 00:37:36,860
say I'm not optimistic and hey listen

869
00:37:42,060 --> 00:37:39,500
it's stupid although karma has kept it

870
00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:42,070
where we have able to slowly but surely

871
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:46,310
progress this program it is pretty wild

872
00:37:51,310 --> 00:37:48,290
we're like getting to this almost shut

873
00:37:53,530 --> 00:37:51,320
up he'd calculate level yep Theory the

874
00:37:55,900 --> 00:37:53,540
theory has advanced much the mathematics

875
00:37:59,020 --> 00:37:55,910
in fact we just wrote a paper committed

876
00:38:01,150 --> 00:37:59,030
physics journal and did not write reject

877
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:01,160
it basically just said we don't really

878
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:02,930
understand why this is important you

879
00:38:07,330 --> 00:38:04,850
know if you could explain to us then we

880
00:38:10,030 --> 00:38:07,340
would be considered so that's that's

881
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:10,040
actually very optimistic review that's

882
00:38:14,770 --> 00:38:13,010
progress yeah it is progress so you know

883
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:14,780
that's with the theory and the theory

884
00:38:20,859 --> 00:38:18,530
itself is pretty shocking and something

885
00:38:23,830 --> 00:38:20,869
that I was gonna say earlier we're

886
00:38:25,570 --> 00:38:23,840
talking about this but you know one of

887
00:38:27,910 --> 00:38:25,580
the big differences between what we're

888
00:38:29,650 --> 00:38:27,920
doing in the mainstream way the

889
00:38:31,690 --> 00:38:29,660
mainstream way of doing it is it's

890
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:31,700
always the same pattern you you

891
00:38:36,609 --> 00:38:34,490
predicted some chemical inside the cell

892
00:38:39,940 --> 00:38:36,619
is causing the death and so you try to

893
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:39,950
find some drug it stops that chemical

894
00:38:43,630 --> 00:38:41,450
from doing what everybody think it's

895
00:38:45,730 --> 00:38:43,640
good right but what with our

896
00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:45,740
mathematical theory we've already begun

897
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:48,800
to be able to envision machines you

898
00:38:54,609 --> 00:38:51,410
could create whole new technologies that

899
00:38:56,260 --> 00:38:54,619
you can create whatever may be like an

900
00:38:57,730 --> 00:38:56,270
MRI machine or something like that but

901
00:39:01,599 --> 00:38:57,740
you take and you put the stroke patient

902
00:39:05,410 --> 00:39:01,609
in it to be able to identify the extent

903
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:05,420
of their stroke and calculate therapy

904
00:39:13,010 --> 00:39:07,970
and apply it even wine or something like

905
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:13,020
light or radiation not wrong and so

906
00:39:21,590 --> 00:39:18,330
this is you know help me out with this

907
00:39:24,950 --> 00:39:21,600
one Don when you get consciousness wrong

908
00:39:27,590 --> 00:39:24,960
now we've talked a lot about science and

909
00:39:29,510 --> 00:39:27,600
some people call it science bashing I

910
00:39:32,270 --> 00:39:29,520
don't consider it that way I think it's

911
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:32,280
I wrote a book a couple years ago why

912
00:39:36,710 --> 00:39:34,170
science is wrong about almost everything

913
00:39:39,740 --> 00:39:36,720
and the basic premise was that if you

914
00:39:42,650 --> 00:39:39,750
get consciousness wrong in the way

915
00:39:46,100 --> 00:39:42,660
you're describing it then it's hard

916
00:39:56,420 --> 00:39:46,110
really to get much of anything right you

917
00:40:00,320 --> 00:39:56,430
talk about I will I absolutely will but

918
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:00,330
to expound on that point because it's

919
00:40:04,730 --> 00:40:02,370
frustrating for me to have to explain to

920
00:40:07,220 --> 00:40:04,740
people even people I really like and

921
00:40:10,070 --> 00:40:07,230
respect like Rupert Sheldrake you know

922
00:40:12,380 --> 00:40:10,080
Cambridge biologist but just recoil

923
00:40:14,450 --> 00:40:12,390
again at the idea that science is wrong

924
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:14,460
about almost everything no wait wait

925
00:40:20,030 --> 00:40:17,130
they're right about lasers they're right

926
00:40:20,450 --> 00:40:20,040
about all of it you're right you're

927
00:40:22,850 --> 00:40:20,460
right

928
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:22,860
Deena comes back to Codd see we can only

929
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:25,770
go back to edit everything that appears

930
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:28,050
to be outside of us is actually in our

931
00:40:33,110 --> 00:40:30,810
mind if we don't understand how our mind

932
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:33,120
works you really don't understand how

933
00:40:37,430 --> 00:40:35,610
those things were and this is why we're

934
00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:37,440
faced with this shut up and populate

935
00:40:41,690 --> 00:40:39,390
paradox on the mechanics because now all

936
00:40:43,940 --> 00:40:41,700
of a sudden were confronted ever since

937
00:40:45,170 --> 00:40:43,950
the quantum mechanics in the 1930s we've

938
00:40:47,210 --> 00:40:45,180
been confronted with the fact that

939
00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:47,220
whatever this transcendental thing is

940
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:49,890
that God is talking about is nothing at

941
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:51,570
all like what our senses perceive the

942
00:40:58,010 --> 00:40:54,330
world to be our senses are perceiving

943
00:41:01,220 --> 00:40:58,020
some very narrow very narrow window into

944
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:01,230
what it really is and so that right

945
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:03,090
there should cause everybody to be

946
00:41:10,070 --> 00:41:07,170
highly skeptical about realism it's a

947
00:41:11,930 --> 00:41:10,080
viewpoint let's pound on that a little

948
00:41:15,710 --> 00:41:11,940
bit further and I want to draw people's

949
00:41:18,140 --> 00:41:15,720
attention to some of your writings one

950
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:18,150
as an excellent article you wrote for

951
00:41:23,470 --> 00:41:21,210
edge magazine which is a publication of

952
00:41:26,750 --> 00:41:23,480
the journal for scientific exploration

953
00:41:29,330 --> 00:41:26,760
and you wrote an article about

954
00:41:32,330 --> 00:41:29,340
beyond neuroscience you're really saying

955
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:32,340
all the same things but you it's

956
00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:34,410
interesting that when you apply it to a

957
00:41:39,050 --> 00:41:36,570
different field like neuroscience and

958
00:41:41,690 --> 00:41:39,060
you say hey beware of all those pretty

959
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:41,700
pictures that you see on your fMRI

960
00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:44,730
because you may be interpreting them

961
00:41:51,050 --> 00:41:47,520
differently than they really are it

962
00:41:53,060 --> 00:41:51,060
helps people I guess maybe get a little

963
00:41:56,300 --> 00:41:53,070
bit closer to what you're really talking

964
00:41:59,720 --> 00:41:56,310
about here so if you can break that down

965
00:42:03,580 --> 00:41:59,730
in terms of beyond neuroscience cuz we

966
00:42:06,109 --> 00:42:03,590
sure do love neuroscience sure so ok

967
00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:06,119
first thing to say is that article was

968
00:42:10,099 --> 00:42:08,250
written as it's almost a little

969
00:42:12,530 --> 00:42:10,109
precursor of the book of yogic view of

970
00:42:16,130 --> 00:42:12,540
consciousness it was a follow-up to that

971
00:42:18,620 --> 00:42:16,140
SSE talked on the internet which also

972
00:42:20,540 --> 00:42:18,630
was a precursor to the book it's up on

973
00:42:22,220 --> 00:42:20,550
the internet but I just had to repost it

974
00:42:23,690 --> 00:42:22,230
because he had it like unlisted or

975
00:42:25,730 --> 00:42:23,700
private or something like that no one

976
00:42:27,620 --> 00:42:25,740
could find it I downloaded it and

977
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:27,630
reuploaded it and we'll talk about it

978
00:42:36,500 --> 00:42:31,290
that way no one could find it oh wow I

979
00:42:38,510 --> 00:42:36,510
didn't I didn't anyway so yeah it all

980
00:42:40,370 --> 00:42:38,520
comes back to Khan right so everything

981
00:42:42,260 --> 00:42:40,380
that we perceive with our senses the

982
00:42:43,730 --> 00:42:42,270
idea is if you assume that the

983
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:43,740
transcendental there is something

984
00:42:48,140 --> 00:42:45,210
outside of our mind if you make that

985
00:42:50,510 --> 00:42:48,150
assumption you can't assume that

986
00:42:53,540 --> 00:42:50,520
whatever that is has the same form as

987
00:42:56,300 --> 00:42:53,550
it's in our mind right so when we

988
00:42:57,980 --> 00:42:56,310
perceive something in our mind as I

989
00:42:59,900 --> 00:42:57,990
actually address this in yoga of

990
00:43:02,599 --> 00:42:59,910
consciousness and I chose an example of

991
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:02,609
holograph ok so a holograph have you've

992
00:43:06,859 --> 00:43:04,890
seen a 3d hologram right it looks like

993
00:43:10,220 --> 00:43:06,869
something and you know Louie Armstrong

994
00:43:12,349 --> 00:43:10,230
playing his trombone or whatever in 3d

995
00:43:15,430 --> 00:43:12,359
but if you look at the holographic plate

996
00:43:18,170 --> 00:43:15,440
that Thor is that it just looks like

997
00:43:20,270 --> 00:43:18,180
it's weird kind of semi-beautiful

998
00:43:22,609 --> 00:43:20,280
pattern that has nothing to do it it's

999
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:22,619
this weird abstract pattern stored on

1000
00:43:27,260 --> 00:43:25,710
the holographic plate beyond but then if

1001
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:27,270
you do certain manipulation to that

1002
00:43:32,420 --> 00:43:29,090
holographic plate it produces a

1003
00:43:35,900 --> 00:43:32,430
holograph of Louie Armstrong right and

1004
00:43:38,720 --> 00:43:35,910
so that's the metaphor trying to

1005
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:38,730
understand the link between the

1006
00:43:44,810 --> 00:43:42,090
gentle and the actual appearances in our

1007
00:43:46,460 --> 00:43:44,820
mind so we see Louie Armstrong in our

1008
00:43:48,710 --> 00:43:46,470
mind but in the real world of the

1009
00:43:51,050 --> 00:43:48,720
transcendental it's more like this

1010
00:43:55,940 --> 00:43:51,060
abstract thing that we're only getting a

1011
00:43:57,920 --> 00:43:55,950
certain angler of limited concept on so

1012
00:44:00,440 --> 00:43:57,930
but now introduced neuroscience because

1013
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:00,450
what I hear you saying is neuroscience

1014
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:03,930
takes the joke and extends it one level

1015
00:44:10,730 --> 00:44:08,010
further we can take it they say no Don

1016
00:44:13,340 --> 00:44:10,740
we can't we have this nice picture here

1017
00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:13,350
of your mind just look it on it look at

1018
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:15,510
it on the computer screen and that is

1019
00:44:20,540 --> 00:44:17,490
your mind that's not just your brain

1020
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:20,550
that is your mind that is cannot I have

1021
00:44:25,250 --> 00:44:22,710
a PhD in this stuff so if you want to go

1022
00:44:27,410 --> 00:44:25,260
there I mean you're like asking for a

1023
00:44:32,690 --> 00:44:27,420
fight what I want you to try and do for

1024
00:44:37,010 --> 00:44:32,700
folks is is connect them to why it's so

1025
00:44:40,430 --> 00:44:37,020
attractive to look at those FMR eyes why

1026
00:44:43,420 --> 00:44:40,440
it's so alluring and why it's complete

1027
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:46,220
well yeah so in this advanced neural

1028
00:44:49,940 --> 00:44:48,210
course I give a lecture on brain blood

1029
00:44:54,260 --> 00:44:49,950
flow and lack of blood flow which is

1030
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:54,270
ischemia agenda but their exercise is

1031
00:45:01,160 --> 00:44:57,450
they have to criticize I give them some

1032
00:45:02,930 --> 00:45:01,170
highly detailed brain anatomy literature

1033
00:45:05,450 --> 00:45:02,940
to read and they have to explain why the

1034
00:45:09,140 --> 00:45:05,460
F MRIs are so unbelievably crude and

1035
00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:09,150
what their fundamental flaw is and flaw

1036
00:45:14,030 --> 00:45:11,910
itself is that there's this concept

1037
00:45:17,750 --> 00:45:14,040
called block design or subtraction

1038
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:17,760
design and the idea being that here's a

1039
00:45:23,690 --> 00:45:20,640
standard fMRI experimental design where

1040
00:45:25,130 --> 00:45:23,700
let's say you want to study what parts

1041
00:45:27,230 --> 00:45:25,140
of the brain are involved with reading

1042
00:45:28,910 --> 00:45:27,240
so what you'll do is you'll put somebody

1043
00:45:30,710 --> 00:45:28,920
in the fMRI machine and you'll show them

1044
00:45:33,260 --> 00:45:30,720
just images that don't have words and

1045
00:45:35,450 --> 00:45:33,270
that'll activate the eyes and the visual

1046
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:35,460
parts of the brain then you'll show them

1047
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:37,890
just word which activates the eye is in

1048
00:45:41,810 --> 00:45:39,450
the visual parts of the brain plus the

1049
00:45:43,550 --> 00:45:41,820
language part and they'll take the scan

1050
00:45:45,740 --> 00:45:43,560
they get in the first instance which is

1051
00:45:49,340 --> 00:45:45,750
just visual activation and subtract that

1052
00:45:51,350 --> 00:45:49,350
from visual plus language activate and

1053
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:51,360
then the difference they did

1054
00:45:56,930 --> 00:45:54,450
is it then say those are the language

1055
00:45:58,850 --> 00:45:56,940
parts of the brain and once in a while

1056
00:46:00,920 --> 00:45:58,860
it kind of works but in general it does

1057
00:46:02,210 --> 00:46:00,930
not work and the reason it does not work

1058
00:46:03,950 --> 00:46:02,220
goes back to this whole thing of

1059
00:46:05,450 --> 00:46:03,960
nonlinear see when you just add two

1060
00:46:07,310 --> 00:46:05,460
things together they're assuming they're

1061
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:07,320
linear and when you subtract them

1062
00:46:11,210 --> 00:46:08,490
they're assuming they're just you're

1063
00:46:14,540 --> 00:46:11,220
linearly adding language to the other so

1064
00:46:18,020 --> 00:46:14,550
you can't do that why can't you do that

1065
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:18,030
why can't you do that break that because

1066
00:46:21,980 --> 00:46:19,770
the system is inherently nonlinear

1067
00:46:24,830 --> 00:46:21,990
that's why but here's the even better

1068
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:24,840
thing so somewhere around 2000 2003

1069
00:46:31,010 --> 00:46:28,170
years I back up there one second the

1070
00:46:32,870 --> 00:46:31,020
system is inherently nonlinear but the

1071
00:46:34,580 --> 00:46:32,880
linear means that when you can't just

1072
00:46:36,170 --> 00:46:34,590
add things together they don't just

1073
00:46:38,300 --> 00:46:36,180
simple it's not two plus two equals four

1074
00:46:40,820 --> 00:46:38,310
it's more like you've got this item and

1075
00:46:42,860 --> 00:46:40,830
you add this item to it and now it's

1076
00:46:45,260 --> 00:46:42,870
like instead of twice the effect you get

1077
00:46:47,540 --> 00:46:45,270
four times the effect so why are why is

1078
00:46:47,930 --> 00:46:47,550
that fmri I want to belabor this why is

1079
00:46:55,910 --> 00:46:47,940
that

1080
00:46:58,520 --> 00:46:55,920
the fMRI fMRI measures blood flow in the

1081
00:47:02,090 --> 00:46:58,530
brain okay it's measuring the flow of

1082
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:02,100
blood and first off and this is another

1083
00:47:06,620 --> 00:47:04,290
part of the exercise the question of how

1084
00:47:09,140 --> 00:47:06,630
using the neurons links to blood flow

1085
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:09,150
that's not been solved there's a several

1086
00:47:13,100 --> 00:47:11,730
theories about it and the students are

1087
00:47:15,290 --> 00:47:13,110
expected to learn those those are they

1088
00:47:16,750 --> 00:47:15,300
they have the form of this ABC kind of

1089
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:16,760
thing you got to learn these different

1090
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:19,170
molecules that interact and so forth

1091
00:47:24,860 --> 00:47:22,170
itself is flawed because that assumes a

1092
00:47:28,970 --> 00:47:24,870
linear sequence of events at the

1093
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:28,980
cellular level and you know heard of the

1094
00:47:32,540 --> 00:47:30,930
anatomy I have them there's actually

1095
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:32,550
some really good people in the field

1096
00:47:36,710 --> 00:47:34,530
that were very intelligent articles and

1097
00:47:38,660 --> 00:47:36,720
I have them read one that like this is

1098
00:47:40,460 --> 00:47:38,670
an amazing thing that even blows me away

1099
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:40,470
if you take one square millimeter of

1100
00:47:45,740 --> 00:47:43,170
brain tissue has something like close to

1101
00:47:50,390 --> 00:47:45,750
a million neurons in it some several

1102
00:47:55,490 --> 00:47:50,400
kilometers of axon and unbelievably

1103
00:47:58,220 --> 00:47:55,500
densely packed and that unit one square

1104
00:48:00,890 --> 00:47:58,230
millimeter is a typical voxel of MRI

1105
00:48:02,720 --> 00:48:00,900
technology so you're averaging across

1106
00:48:06,050 --> 00:48:02,730
that whole thing but across a million

1107
00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:06,060
neurons with that what does that mean

1108
00:48:09,620 --> 00:48:08,310
at least temperature we understand

1109
00:48:11,300 --> 00:48:09,630
theoretically because it's just

1110
00:48:13,190 --> 00:48:11,310
molecules in enough stuff but when

1111
00:48:14,720 --> 00:48:13,200
you've got a million neurons interacting

1112
00:48:17,450 --> 00:48:14,730
and you're averaging across all of that

1113
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:17,460
what does that mean so we can return to

1114
00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:19,890
your analogy about the cell and the cell

1115
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:23,310
is a city and we keep so we can say well

1116
00:48:28,550 --> 00:48:26,370
that city is no more or we can say that

1117
00:48:30,980 --> 00:48:28,560
city is still functioning but if you

1118
00:48:33,890 --> 00:48:30,990
were inside the city it would make a

1119
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:33,900
really big difference if the city up and

1120
00:48:38,810 --> 00:48:35,970
move to another place or if it got hit

1121
00:48:41,420 --> 00:48:38,820
by an atomic bomb or if various the air

1122
00:48:42,830 --> 00:48:41,430
it got hit by some plague or something

1123
00:48:46,550 --> 00:48:42,840
like that all those things would be very

1124
00:48:50,210 --> 00:48:46,560
different and so there's an analogy here

1125
00:48:52,750 --> 00:48:50,220
like with the fMRI to MRI we got a

1126
00:48:56,540 --> 00:48:52,760
million cells in that volume of one

1127
00:48:58,370 --> 00:48:56,550
voxel one unit of the image so now we're

1128
00:48:59,690 --> 00:48:58,380
dealing with a million cities where they

1129
00:49:02,150 --> 00:48:59,700
happen to be of a million cities that

1130
00:49:05,390 --> 00:49:02,160
are active you're getting this some

1131
00:49:07,130 --> 00:49:05,400
signal coming out that in fact has to do

1132
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:07,140
with the magnetization properties of

1133
00:49:12,740 --> 00:49:10,290
blood that's the basis of fMRI signal

1134
00:49:14,990 --> 00:49:12,750
right we have hemoglobin and that's a

1135
00:49:17,150 --> 00:49:15,000
magnetic substance in our body and

1136
00:49:19,460 --> 00:49:17,160
you're altering from our eye shoots a

1137
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:19,470
magnetic wave and alters its

1138
00:49:25,730 --> 00:49:21,450
magnetization and you're getting this

1139
00:49:28,850 --> 00:49:25,740
magnetic signal back out of the machine

1140
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:28,860
right so what the hell the right so

1141
00:49:32,270 --> 00:49:30,090
we're talking about this unit of a

1142
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:32,280
million things and you shot there's big

1143
00:49:35,630 --> 00:49:33,810
magnetic pulse into it are actually

1144
00:49:39,410 --> 00:49:35,640
radio frequency that changes the

1145
00:49:41,390 --> 00:49:39,420
magnetization then you could put and

1146
00:49:43,580 --> 00:49:41,400
yeah it really it's it's literally

1147
00:49:45,650 --> 00:49:43,590
voodoo it's literally voodoo and if the

1148
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:45,660
students don't recognize that and get a

1149
00:49:50,060 --> 00:49:48,330
very bad grade on my exercise Buganda

1150
00:49:51,620 --> 00:49:50,070
it's a matter of just like logically

1151
00:49:53,150 --> 00:49:51,630
going through this because if you're

1152
00:49:55,910 --> 00:49:53,160
scientist and you're really trying to

1153
00:49:59,030 --> 00:49:55,920
reveal the mechanism that's your goal

1154
00:50:01,400 --> 00:49:59,040
right you can't just fluffy arm waving

1155
00:50:04,070 --> 00:50:01,410
stuff and so it's it's a very strict

1156
00:50:05,900 --> 00:50:04,080
strong exercise and they need to explain

1157
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:05,910
how and the other thing those are the

1158
00:50:07,850 --> 00:50:07,530
hold on it jumped up in there for a

1159
00:50:10,190 --> 00:50:07,860
minute

1160
00:50:13,790 --> 00:50:10,200
and and returned to a point because it's

1161
00:50:15,650 --> 00:50:13,800
it's nice to kind of really fully

1162
00:50:19,070 --> 00:50:15,660
understand the the pluses and the

1163
00:50:19,730 --> 00:50:19,080
minuses because it can be useful in some

1164
00:50:21,350 --> 00:50:19,740
situations

1165
00:50:23,630 --> 00:50:21,360
patience but it's again returning to the

1166
00:50:27,140 --> 00:50:23,640
shutup and calculate thing let's not

1167
00:50:30,680 --> 00:50:27,150
forget what were assumed and we when we

1168
00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:30,690
use that so well komaraiah's it for

1169
00:50:34,580 --> 00:50:32,490
diagnosis in certain types of medical

1170
00:50:36,350 --> 00:50:34,590
illnesses that's the one you can see

1171
00:50:38,210 --> 00:50:36,360
there's clear places where you get

1172
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:38,220
macroscopic damage in the brain you can

1173
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:40,530
detect with technology it's really good

1174
00:50:45,530 --> 00:50:43,890
for diagnostic well here's another one I

1175
00:50:47,930 --> 00:50:45,540
throw at you because I'd love to get

1176
00:50:49,940 --> 00:50:47,940
your comment on it because in my world

1177
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:49,950
and in the people I talked to the other

1178
00:50:54,380 --> 00:50:51,450
thing that's kind of interesting about

1179
00:50:57,740 --> 00:50:54,390
fMRI that's happened lately is go give

1180
00:51:01,040 --> 00:50:57,750
somebody psilocybin and measure do an

1181
00:51:04,730 --> 00:51:01,050
fMRI before and then do an fMRI under

1182
00:51:07,220 --> 00:51:04,740
psilocybin and everything we think we

1183
00:51:09,650 --> 00:51:07,230
know about neuroscience would say wow

1184
00:51:12,859 --> 00:51:09,660
you're having this intense experience

1185
00:51:15,170 --> 00:51:12,869
your fMRI is gonna be lit up there's

1186
00:51:16,580 --> 00:51:15,180
gonna be all this blood flow all over

1187
00:51:18,770 --> 00:51:16,590
the place because you're having this

1188
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:18,780
exceptional experience and what they

1189
00:51:24,590 --> 00:51:22,050
find not surprising to a yogi like you

1190
00:51:28,340 --> 00:51:24,600
is the opposite they find the shutting

1191
00:51:29,930 --> 00:51:28,350
down of the filters of consciousness I

1192
00:51:31,790 --> 00:51:29,940
am injecting that in that's an

1193
00:51:33,890 --> 00:51:31,800
assumption but there's finding a

1194
00:51:36,590 --> 00:51:33,900
shutting down of certain areas that

1195
00:51:38,870 --> 00:51:36,600
cause this increased awareness so

1196
00:51:43,010 --> 00:51:38,880
there's a tool there we're getting data

1197
00:51:44,990 --> 00:51:43,020
but the data doesn't fit our ontology so

1198
00:51:47,060 --> 00:51:45,000
we kind of reinterpret it in a different

1199
00:51:49,670 --> 00:51:47,070
way what do you think about some of that

1200
00:51:52,910 --> 00:51:49,680
research from David Nutt in the UK and

1201
00:51:55,609 --> 00:51:52,920
other folks like that well one thing

1202
00:51:57,170 --> 00:51:55,619
that I wanted I'm not going to directly

1203
00:51:58,820 --> 00:51:57,180
answer that right away but I wanted to

1204
00:52:01,880 --> 00:51:58,830
circle back to something I was going to

1205
00:52:05,570 --> 00:52:01,890
say about limitations therefore I'm fMRI

1206
00:52:08,359 --> 00:52:05,580
is that but we talked about the linear

1207
00:52:10,250 --> 00:52:08,369
block design subtraction method is that

1208
00:52:12,080 --> 00:52:10,260
you just described as a block design

1209
00:52:13,970 --> 00:52:12,090
experiment right with psilocybin and

1210
00:52:15,740 --> 00:52:13,980
without and them you subtract and you

1211
00:52:18,020 --> 00:52:15,750
get the difference right you literally

1212
00:52:21,050 --> 00:52:18,030
just designed or described as

1213
00:52:23,810 --> 00:52:21,060
subtraction design experiment well I

1214
00:52:28,070 --> 00:52:23,820
started to say this and around 2003 or

1215
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:28,080
so it was discovered under normal

1216
00:52:31,390 --> 00:52:29,490
conditions when you're just sitting

1217
00:52:33,319 --> 00:52:31,400
there totally doing nothing relaxing

1218
00:52:35,870 --> 00:52:33,329
certain regions of the brain

1219
00:52:38,209 --> 00:52:35,880
are highly active okay and it's called

1220
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:38,219
the default Network that's what it is

1221
00:52:41,089 --> 00:52:39,450
now there's this whole literature out

1222
00:52:43,759 --> 00:52:41,099
there now about the default Network and

1223
00:52:46,370 --> 00:52:43,769
this explained why often what would

1224
00:52:48,589 --> 00:52:46,380
happen in these subtraction design is

1225
00:52:51,799 --> 00:52:48,599
that you would know going back to our

1226
00:52:53,599 --> 00:52:51,809
simple visual language example it would

1227
00:52:55,999 --> 00:52:53,609
do the subtraction and you'd find like

1228
00:52:57,410 --> 00:52:56,009
some areas will go way down right here

1229
00:52:59,719 --> 00:52:57,420
you're looking for the areas that are

1230
00:53:01,910 --> 00:52:59,729
active in word recognition but you see a

1231
00:53:03,410 --> 00:53:01,920
bunch of obscure areas that you would

1232
00:53:06,109 --> 00:53:03,420
never think anything to do with language

1233
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:06,119
you see them go down right and what a

1234
00:53:10,609 --> 00:53:08,729
lot of that now can be pinned the fact

1235
00:53:13,519 --> 00:53:10,619
that there's this default network that

1236
00:53:15,890 --> 00:53:13,529
runs and what happens is when we engage

1237
00:53:18,109 --> 00:53:15,900
in specific tasks like say reading or

1238
00:53:19,519 --> 00:53:18,119
playing moving their muscles or

1239
00:53:22,819 --> 00:53:19,529
listening to music or listening to

1240
00:53:24,559 --> 00:53:22,829
language specific tasks and alters the

1241
00:53:26,509 --> 00:53:24,569
behavior of the default network flows

1242
00:53:29,779 --> 00:53:26,519
the default network bound and it acts up

1243
00:53:32,569 --> 00:53:29,789
they the language areas or what have you

1244
00:53:34,819 --> 00:53:32,579
and so that had been in the going on all

1245
00:53:39,819 --> 00:53:34,829
along and nobody knew it right all this

1246
00:53:42,019 --> 00:53:39,829
fMRI data from free 2003 ish is better

1247
00:53:43,999 --> 00:53:42,029
with a real grain of salt how they

1248
00:53:46,729 --> 00:53:44,009
interpret it because they didn't know

1249
00:53:50,359 --> 00:53:46,739
about the default network that just runs

1250
00:53:54,049 --> 00:53:50,369
naturally and the default network now is

1251
00:53:58,549 --> 00:53:54,059
believed to be related to internal

1252
00:54:01,160 --> 00:53:58,559
states like daydreaming just thinking to

1253
00:54:03,289 --> 00:54:01,170
yourself and does it happen in quiet

1254
00:54:06,769 --> 00:54:03,299
state so what you're talking about about

1255
00:54:08,930 --> 00:54:06,779
the psilocybin resolve suggesting that I

1256
00:54:11,049 --> 00:54:08,940
mean it's basically activating the

1257
00:54:13,189 --> 00:54:11,059
default Network and suppressing other

1258
00:54:15,410 --> 00:54:13,199
specific parts of the brain that allow

1259
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:15,420
us to engage with the world right so

1260
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:16,650
that result that you described to me

1261
00:54:20,779 --> 00:54:18,690
actually done hearing it for the first

1262
00:54:23,539 --> 00:54:20,789
time make sense because I ever seen that

1263
00:54:28,069 --> 00:54:23,549
before study so here's what I thought

1264
00:54:30,739 --> 00:54:28,079
we'd go next and it's this idea of kind

1265
00:54:33,620 --> 00:54:30,749
of looking at the extremes which I think

1266
00:54:35,959 --> 00:54:33,630
are always advisable in in silent in

1267
00:54:37,150 --> 00:54:35,969
Sciences to look at the anomalies right

1268
00:54:40,549 --> 00:54:37,160
because we get really comfortable

1269
00:54:42,979 --> 00:54:40,559
theories and then we we can never prove

1270
00:54:45,949 --> 00:54:42,989
anything in science but it is pretty

1271
00:54:47,089 --> 00:54:45,959
cool when we disprove things so I think

1272
00:54:49,339 --> 00:54:47,099
the extreme

1273
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:49,349
cases as we know the anomalies or what

1274
00:54:53,870 --> 00:54:50,970
we want to look and that's where I

1275
00:54:57,410 --> 00:54:53,880
wanted to take you next in an effort to

1276
00:55:00,079 --> 00:54:57,420
maybe challenge what you're saying in a

1277
00:55:03,979 --> 00:55:00,089
way and at the same time develop some

1278
00:55:06,170 --> 00:55:03,989
kind of map of what these extended

1279
00:55:09,559 --> 00:55:06,180
consciousness realms might look like

1280
00:55:12,710 --> 00:55:09,569
because we have to of course start with

1281
00:55:15,109 --> 00:55:12,720
the the really dopey we're biological

1282
00:55:16,849 --> 00:55:15,119
robots and a meaningless universe idea

1283
00:55:20,509 --> 00:55:16,859
of consciousness which requires no

1284
00:55:22,759 --> 00:55:20,519
mapping it requires virtually nothing

1285
00:55:23,900 --> 00:55:22,769
but as soon as we acknowledge all the

1286
00:55:26,420 --> 00:55:23,910
things that you're talking about and

1287
00:55:28,609 --> 00:55:26,430
saying there's this richness to

1288
00:55:30,950 --> 00:55:28,619
consciousness then we have a lot of

1289
00:55:32,809 --> 00:55:30,960
things to look at so the first thing

1290
00:55:35,089 --> 00:55:32,819
that I bring your so the first point

1291
00:55:37,249 --> 00:55:35,099
that I bring your attention to is I have

1292
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:37,259
to tell my little yoga story you know

1293
00:55:42,620 --> 00:55:39,690
because my very first introduction to

1294
00:55:44,660 --> 00:55:42,630
yoga was probably similar to the way a

1295
00:55:46,670 --> 00:55:44,670
lot of people experience it today and

1296
00:55:50,269 --> 00:55:46,680
that's through a yoga class you know

1297
00:55:52,729 --> 00:55:50,279
with a yoga mat and postures but for me

1298
00:55:55,579 --> 00:55:52,739
way back in the day it was on TV it was

1299
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:55,589
this public television station and this

1300
00:56:00,349 --> 00:55:57,690
woman who was doing yoga and for

1301
00:56:02,359 --> 00:56:00,359
whatever reason I jumped in the class

1302
00:56:04,549 --> 00:56:02,369
and did the class with her and I always

1303
00:56:07,269 --> 00:56:04,559
remember this at the end of the class

1304
00:56:12,079 --> 00:56:07,279
she goes okay now I want you to lay down

1305
00:56:16,729 --> 00:56:12,089
close your mind and let the thinking

1306
00:56:20,390 --> 00:56:16,739
mind subside and let it stop and for

1307
00:56:23,870 --> 00:56:20,400
just an instant that chatter in my mind

1308
00:56:26,539 --> 00:56:23,880
stopped well of course as a lot of

1309
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:26,549
people know what happens is that scared

1310
00:56:33,049 --> 00:56:29,249
the crap out of me because up to that

1311
00:56:35,809 --> 00:56:33,059
point I thought that was me I thought

1312
00:56:39,259 --> 00:56:35,819
that voice that was constantly yammering

1313
00:56:44,209 --> 00:56:39,269
on was me and I thought that that's all

1314
00:56:46,579 --> 00:56:44,219
there was of me so that really propelled

1315
00:56:48,079 --> 00:56:46,589
me into saying hey there's something

1316
00:56:50,960 --> 00:56:48,089
here there's something I want to look

1317
00:56:52,880 --> 00:56:50,970
into but my next

1318
00:56:55,430 --> 00:56:52,890
kind of venture into it was to start

1319
00:56:57,650 --> 00:56:55,440
reading books and then eventually start

1320
00:57:00,559 --> 00:56:57,660
taking classes and I was taking

1321
00:57:02,500 --> 00:57:00,569
correspondence classes from a guy who

1322
00:57:05,690 --> 00:57:02,510
wrote that very famous book

1323
00:57:08,210 --> 00:57:05,700
autobiography of a yogi' the Yogananda

1324
00:57:11,210 --> 00:57:08,220
guy who his self-realization fellowship

1325
00:57:13,849 --> 00:57:11,220
temple is about five miles from where I

1326
00:57:16,819 --> 00:57:13,859
sit right here coincidentally but here I

1327
00:57:18,109 --> 00:57:16,829
am on this high-tech entrepreneur who's

1328
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:18,119
trying to get my business off the ground

1329
00:57:22,790 --> 00:57:20,490
and I'm getting these correspondences

1330
00:57:26,420 --> 00:57:22,800
from the self-realization fellowship

1331
00:57:28,550 --> 00:57:26,430
it's walking rate well it's it's it's

1332
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:28,560
the story that a lot of us have in terms

1333
00:57:33,980 --> 00:57:32,490
of just how we're led down a path

1334
00:57:36,380 --> 00:57:33,990
whether we want to or not

1335
00:57:38,859 --> 00:57:36,390
but here's the point in all that so

1336
00:57:42,770 --> 00:57:38,869
that's my little story but the point is

1337
00:57:46,059 --> 00:57:42,780
when you start reading Yogananda and you

1338
00:57:49,940 --> 00:57:46,069
read the first 30 pages for most of us

1339
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:49,950
especially with any kind of grounding

1340
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:52,890
and Western realism were blown away by

1341
00:57:58,550 --> 00:57:55,170
their miracles I mean is this guy for

1342
00:58:01,550 --> 00:57:58,560
real talking about you know manifesting

1343
00:58:05,089 --> 00:58:01,560
things meals right in front of a by

1344
00:58:07,700 --> 00:58:05,099
location of people shape-shifting so

1345
00:58:09,380 --> 00:58:07,710
this is a real guy Yogananda we have

1346
00:58:11,450 --> 00:58:09,390
pictures of them we have people who

1347
00:58:15,079 --> 00:58:11,460
still remember sitting with him

1348
00:58:18,829 --> 00:58:15,089
people who recount seeing miracles maybe

1349
00:58:23,329 --> 00:58:18,839
not of that magnitude but what are we to

1350
00:58:26,359 --> 00:58:23,339
make of the yoga miracles we hear that

1351
00:58:29,420 --> 00:58:26,369
kind of challenge our understanding of

1352
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:29,430
how reality works but more importantly

1353
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:32,010
for our discussion how consciousness

1354
00:58:39,559 --> 00:58:36,650
works you have any thoughts on that done

1355
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:39,569
well I think what I fallback out of my

1356
00:58:42,950 --> 00:58:41,010
own experience cuz I got into all this

1357
00:58:44,660 --> 00:58:42,960
through theosophy actually you want to

1358
00:58:45,940 --> 00:58:44,670
hear my experience I was thinking about

1359
00:58:48,589 --> 00:58:45,950
this I don't think I shared this with

1360
00:58:51,349 --> 00:58:48,599
absolutely this is pretty amazing so

1361
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:51,359
when I was a kid my dad used to take us

1362
00:58:55,819 --> 00:58:53,250
to the local flea market on the weekend

1363
00:58:59,660 --> 00:58:55,829
and we just look around at all the junk

1364
00:59:03,770 --> 00:58:59,670
and stuff right I probably was in high

1365
00:59:05,570 --> 00:59:03,780
school so probably 15 or 16 or something

1366
00:59:07,070 --> 00:59:05,580
and one time we were there and there is

1367
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:07,080
a guy with the table set out he had all

1368
00:59:10,310 --> 00:59:08,850
these buckets right and I'd love to read

1369
00:59:13,100 --> 00:59:10,320
even back then so I went up and looked

1370
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:13,110
they were weird they were like how to do

1371
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:15,570
telepathy and astral projection and all

1372
00:59:19,790 --> 00:59:17,250
this weird stuff the guy just looks at

1373
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:19,800
me and goes I think this one's for you

1374
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:21,570
and he gives me a book on how to astral

1375
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:26,730
project and I'm like it's weird so we

1376
00:59:30,050 --> 00:59:28,650
got out to the car to go home and I like

1377
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:30,060
look at the thing they're like what is

1378
00:59:32,780 --> 00:59:31,290
that word I'm like I don't know it's

1379
00:59:33,580 --> 00:59:32,790
some stupid [\h__\h] and I threw it out the

1380
00:59:39,020 --> 00:59:33,590
window

1381
00:59:40,880 --> 00:59:39,030
irony you just never left me because it

1382
00:59:44,450 --> 00:59:40,890
was only within a year or two after that

1383
00:59:47,090 --> 00:59:44,460
that I started to have my history that's

1384
00:59:48,620 --> 00:59:47,100
pretty wild huh okay so pretty well but

1385
00:59:51,070 --> 00:59:48,630
you got to follow it up with the story

1386
00:59:54,860 --> 00:59:51,080
of the first astral projection Oh

1387
00:59:57,440 --> 00:59:54,870
seriously but yeah I don't know if I

1388
00:59:59,570 --> 00:59:57,450
ever shared that with you so it was

1389
01:00:02,510 --> 00:59:59,580
totally spontaneous I could come home

1390
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:02,520
from school and I used to take naps and

1391
01:00:07,280 --> 01:00:04,770
I'd come home from school I'm laying

1392
01:00:09,410 --> 01:00:07,290
there taking a nap next thing you know I

1393
01:00:12,380 --> 01:00:09,420
wake up and I'm like spinning around the

1394
01:00:15,440 --> 01:00:12,390
periphery of my bedroom at the wall the

1395
01:00:19,820 --> 01:00:15,450
upper wall where the ceiling meets the

1396
01:00:23,060 --> 01:00:19,830
wall literally spinning and I'm like I

1397
01:00:25,430 --> 01:00:23,070
was terrified and yet at the same time I

1398
01:00:28,190 --> 01:00:25,440
it was what is this

1399
01:00:31,610 --> 01:00:28,200
my curiosity common ated over the chair

1400
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:31,620
I felt this feeling of air but it was

1401
01:00:34,490 --> 01:00:33,090
just like what the hell is going on what

1402
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:34,500
is going on what it's going and then I

1403
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:36,770
woke up

1404
01:00:41,710 --> 01:00:38,890
that was my first very first experience

1405
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:41,720
and that happened to second time and the

1406
01:00:45,490 --> 01:00:43,490
second time the terror was still there

1407
01:00:47,670 --> 01:00:45,500
but it was had much less of an effect on

1408
01:00:50,110 --> 01:00:47,680
because I recognized what had happened

1409
01:00:52,080 --> 01:00:50,120
both of those happened in high school

1410
01:00:55,150 --> 01:00:52,090
and I totally forgot about both of them

1411
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:55,160
and then I went away to college and you

1412
01:00:59,410 --> 01:00:56,690
know with college you get into all the

1413
01:00:59,950 --> 01:00:59,420
funny stuff though I did not meeting

1414
01:01:02,580 --> 01:00:59,960
this girl

1415
01:01:08,380 --> 01:01:02,590
and she gave me the beaters book about

1416
01:01:10,450 --> 01:01:08,390
astral plane and read it and he talked

1417
01:01:13,240 --> 01:01:10,460
about going to this plane next to ours

1418
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:13,250
and I just made the connection I'm like

1419
01:01:17,410 --> 01:01:14,570
that must have been what I did in high

1420
01:01:20,350 --> 01:01:17,420
school I look somehow I can naturally go

1421
01:01:23,610 --> 01:01:20,360
there by myself me and my buddy my

1422
01:01:25,720 --> 01:01:23,620
roommate we set up this little contest

1423
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:25,730
because I'm late you know he read the

1424
01:01:29,700 --> 01:01:27,410
book he was under the stuff to do and it

1425
01:01:32,260 --> 01:01:29,710
was like well let's even go there first

1426
01:01:34,210 --> 01:01:32,270
and we're just like whatever I would

1427
01:01:35,410 --> 01:01:34,220
practice he had practice we tried to see

1428
01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:35,420
if we could get back there and I ended

1429
01:01:41,290 --> 01:01:37,370
up getting back there pretty quickly and

1430
01:01:43,870 --> 01:01:41,300
that was the start of my whole adventure

1431
01:01:45,430 --> 01:01:43,880
and uh working with you know astral

1432
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:45,440
projection or lucid dreaming whatever

1433
01:01:50,260 --> 01:01:47,930
you want to call it but most of that

1434
01:01:52,450 --> 01:01:50,270
happened when I was in college and done

1435
01:01:56,620 --> 01:01:52,460
maybe should point people to the book

1436
01:01:59,860 --> 01:01:56,630
you wrote isn't it how to Obi I do obe

1437
01:02:03,690 --> 01:01:59,870
yeah yeah so that's up there with my

1438
01:02:06,070 --> 01:02:03,700
other book if you can and I'm dead calm

1439
01:02:07,900 --> 01:02:06,080
download and it actually explains the

1440
01:02:10,390 --> 01:02:07,910
method that I used it does exactly how I

1441
01:02:12,850 --> 01:02:10,400
did it I developed a method that very

1442
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:12,860
reproducibly worked really well in turns

1443
01:02:17,050 --> 01:02:14,810
out in retrospect it was the same method

1444
01:02:20,020 --> 01:02:17,060
that Stephen Laberge described as a wake

1445
01:02:24,580 --> 01:02:20,030
induced lucid dream there were wild

1446
01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:24,590
people so back to the question and I'm

1447
01:02:31,500 --> 01:02:26,890
sure you've thought a lot about this

1448
01:02:34,930 --> 01:02:31,510
what does the reality of that extended

1449
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:34,940
consciousness realm that you tapped into

1450
01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:38,210
and we can only assume some of these

1451
01:02:43,710 --> 01:02:41,570
Yogi's tapped into as well what does

1452
01:02:46,570 --> 01:02:43,720
that say more broadly about our

1453
01:02:50,420 --> 01:02:46,580
understanding of consciousness as we

1454
01:02:53,220 --> 01:02:50,430
experience it on a day-to-day basis

1455
01:02:55,200 --> 01:02:53,230
well one thing it says is a lot of what

1456
01:02:58,140 --> 01:02:55,210
consciousness is is invisible to our

1457
01:03:01,380 --> 01:02:58,150
immediate awareness we're just not

1458
01:03:03,450 --> 01:03:01,390
conscious of it it's unconscious yet it

1459
01:03:05,010 --> 01:03:03,460
conditions our consciousness like I

1460
01:03:06,900 --> 01:03:05,020
spend a lot of time in the book talking

1461
01:03:09,150 --> 01:03:06,910
of that so you might want to use the

1462
01:03:11,519 --> 01:03:09,160
word filter right but these are things

1463
01:03:14,849 --> 01:03:11,529
that affect how we perceive the world

1464
01:03:16,500 --> 01:03:14,859
and how we act and it's also the bait

1465
01:03:18,380 --> 01:03:16,510
we're like we're to creativity and

1466
01:03:20,609 --> 01:03:18,390
inspiration and things like I come from

1467
01:03:22,380 --> 01:03:20,619
right these are the current the

1468
01:03:24,690 --> 01:03:22,390
undercurrent and the cave

1469
01:03:27,779 --> 01:03:24,700
filter up it affects our day-to-day

1470
01:03:32,970 --> 01:03:27,789
behavior among the moment behavior and

1471
01:03:35,700 --> 01:03:32,980
you know if you think like I give the

1472
01:03:38,029 --> 01:03:35,710
example in the book of killed

1473
01:03:40,319 --> 01:03:38,039
discovering the structure of benzene

1474
01:03:43,289 --> 01:03:40,329
right and look at the impact that had on

1475
01:03:45,329 --> 01:03:43,299
the world in a way you might think maybe

1476
01:03:47,210 --> 01:03:45,339
that's a slow-motion example of some of

1477
01:03:50,339 --> 01:03:47,220
these what you're calling yoga miracles

1478
01:03:53,370 --> 01:03:50,349
right maybe these Yogi's who you know I

1479
01:03:54,990 --> 01:03:53,380
just presume that in general they're

1480
01:03:57,150 --> 01:03:55,000
telling the truth of course there is a

1481
01:03:59,269 --> 01:03:57,160
bunch of fakers and posers and stuff

1482
01:04:02,940 --> 01:03:59,279
like that but there says there's this

1483
01:04:04,859 --> 01:04:02,950
ancient tradition that like lost in the

1484
01:04:07,470 --> 01:04:04,869
midst of human history we can't even say

1485
01:04:09,299 --> 01:04:07,480
how old the yoga tradition is I find it

1486
01:04:14,010 --> 01:04:09,309
hard to believe that it would last this

1487
01:04:15,990 --> 01:04:14,020
long if it was all yes right so beyond

1488
01:04:18,210 --> 01:04:16,000
that because I always hate that as an

1489
01:04:20,970 --> 01:04:18,220
explanation is that because we see

1490
01:04:23,910 --> 01:04:20,980
somebody so much fakery that does endure

1491
01:04:26,809 --> 01:04:23,920
for centuries and centuries the other

1492
01:04:30,420 --> 01:04:26,819
thing I'd point out is that our best

1493
01:04:33,870 --> 01:04:30,430
science is pointing to these same things

1494
01:04:37,410 --> 01:04:33,880
it's not really so when we look at the

1495
01:04:39,329 --> 01:04:37,420
side lab as flawed as the parapsychology

1496
01:04:41,789 --> 01:04:39,339
experiments might be in one way or

1497
01:04:43,799 --> 01:04:41,799
another they're pointing towards this if

1498
01:04:46,049 --> 01:04:43,809
we look at near-death experience science

1499
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:46,059
it's pointing towards it is if we look

1500
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:48,730
at experiments with my work talking

1501
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:51,490
about psilocybin or DMT or with

1502
01:04:57,359 --> 01:04:54,250
psychedelics it's pointing towards this

1503
01:04:59,190 --> 01:04:57,369
extended consciousness realm so your

1504
01:05:01,230 --> 01:04:59,200
viewpoint is kind of interesting to me

1505
01:05:03,810 --> 01:05:01,240
because it's like Oy

1506
01:05:05,040 --> 01:05:03,820
say it it's their beats in a round I

1507
01:05:07,609 --> 01:05:05,050
called me in her round and calm the

1508
01:05:09,780 --> 01:05:07,619
plains see having my start in theosophy

1509
01:05:12,080 --> 01:05:09,790
that's the one of the first IDs they

1510
01:05:14,400 --> 01:05:12,090
choose that there's these seven play and

1511
01:05:15,930 --> 01:05:14,410
the one we perceived here with our

1512
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:15,940
senses and our physical body that

1513
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:18,010
physical well it's just the lowest the

1514
01:05:22,170 --> 01:05:20,050
crudest development and that idea runs

1515
01:05:24,300 --> 01:05:22,180
through all my readings in the only

1516
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:24,310
major shift that's happened from my

1517
01:05:28,290 --> 01:05:25,930
earliest when I wrote beyond the

1518
01:05:30,870 --> 01:05:28,300
physical in the early 1990s do you feel

1519
01:05:33,630 --> 01:05:30,880
consciousness like quit making the

1520
01:05:38,090 --> 01:05:33,640
delusional belief that the astral plane

1521
01:05:40,620 --> 01:05:38,100
is out here it's not it's behind here

1522
01:05:44,220 --> 01:05:40,630
turn around and go into the astral plane

1523
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:44,230
it's deeper in the mind it's a deeper

1524
01:05:50,180 --> 01:05:47,290
level in the mind and so all of these

1525
01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:50,190
and so that's what I picked in the

1526
01:05:54,830 --> 01:05:52,330
consciousness show how these make these

1527
01:05:57,240 --> 01:05:54,840
progressive screens deeper into the cave

1528
01:05:59,700 --> 01:05:57,250
it just exists there's maps there's

1529
01:06:01,920 --> 01:05:59,710
really well established maps there's no

1530
01:06:04,460 --> 01:06:01,930
reason to be coy about it we can sit in

1531
01:06:06,570 --> 01:06:04,470
debate the value of the various map

1532
01:06:09,000 --> 01:06:06,580
again it comes down to people's

1533
01:06:10,859 --> 01:06:09,010
experiences right so like a lot of

1534
01:06:12,690 --> 01:06:10,869
people of experience psychedelic drugs

1535
01:06:15,470 --> 01:06:12,700
so that's a decent one so what that's

1536
01:06:17,820 --> 01:06:15,480
doing is its allowing you to see you man

1537
01:06:22,530 --> 01:06:17,830
simultaneously but you're still in this

1538
01:06:24,270 --> 01:06:22,540
map it's making cracks in the surface so

1539
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:24,280
to speak and allowing you to see below

1540
01:06:31,099 --> 01:06:28,210
into the other map that's about what's

1541
01:06:33,630 --> 01:06:31,109
going on with that lucid dreaming is

1542
01:06:35,640 --> 01:06:33,640
dreaming in general but those processes

1543
01:06:39,780 --> 01:06:35,650
you're going to the next in or level

1544
01:06:42,060 --> 01:06:39,790
when you die you go to the next so what

1545
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:42,070
happens when you die is to just lose

1546
01:06:45,270 --> 01:06:44,050
this vehicle and you just go deeper into

1547
01:06:49,770 --> 01:06:45,280
the layers of your mind

1548
01:06:51,599 --> 01:06:49,780
maybe hold that thought so

1549
01:06:53,609 --> 01:06:51,609
Don I know you teach there Wayne State

1550
01:06:56,550 --> 01:06:53,619
University in Detroit and you're from

1551
01:06:58,590 --> 01:06:56,560
Detroit right yeah you know from the

1552
01:07:01,050 --> 01:06:58,600
suburb I always say Detroit just because

1553
01:07:03,599 --> 01:07:01,060
it's easier well I am from the suburbs

1554
01:07:05,609 --> 01:07:03,609
of Chicago but I lived in Detroit for a

1555
01:07:10,109 --> 01:07:05,619
little while as across eight mile many

1556
01:07:12,090 --> 01:07:10,119
times I'm very close yeah famous Eminem

1557
01:07:13,980 --> 01:07:12,100
territory yeah I used to live down and I

1558
01:07:15,120 --> 01:07:13,990
think I told you I used to live down in

1559
01:07:17,150 --> 01:07:15,130
River Rouge

1560
01:07:21,150 --> 01:07:17,160
for a short period of time when I was

1561
01:07:23,370 --> 01:07:21,160
college and I worked down there but the

1562
01:07:27,210 --> 01:07:23,380
nice thing about both Chicago and

1563
01:07:30,509 --> 01:07:27,220
Detroit is you develop a natural kind of

1564
01:07:34,170 --> 01:07:30,519
boost in your immune system to [\h__\h]

1565
01:07:37,670 --> 01:07:34,180
I think there's I think there's less

1566
01:07:41,519 --> 01:07:37,680
people who are susceptible to the yogic

1567
01:07:45,719 --> 01:07:41,529
[\h__\h] that a lot of people fall for

1568
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:45,729
you know so even if you look at all the

1569
01:07:52,319 --> 01:07:48,970
scandals that are associated with Yogi's

1570
01:07:55,559 --> 01:07:52,329
that are associated with the sage on the

1571
01:07:57,779 --> 01:07:55,569
stage mentality which is what a lot of

1572
01:08:00,210 --> 01:07:57,789
people are going to hear when they hear

1573
01:08:04,999 --> 01:08:00,220
yoga they hear you talk about yoga and

1574
01:08:07,259 --> 01:08:05,009
they're gonna go fake huckster and

1575
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:07,269
manipulator because a lot of these

1576
01:08:11,849 --> 01:08:09,970
people have abused what powers they do

1577
01:08:15,599 --> 01:08:11,859
have so it's not that they have powers

1578
01:08:17,999 --> 01:08:15,609
but they've abused him so one of the

1579
01:08:19,859 --> 01:08:18,009
things I say in the book is that it's

1580
01:08:23,999 --> 01:08:19,869
just more proof that pushes you towards

1581
01:08:25,649 --> 01:08:24,009
real yoga well maybe maybe but here's a

1582
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:25,659
whole new city again it's more of this

1583
01:08:30,809 --> 01:08:28,449
the world is just now when you start to

1584
01:08:33,839 --> 01:08:30,819
realize that the world itself is a bunch

1585
01:08:35,430 --> 01:08:33,849
of empty promises just empty promises

1586
01:08:35,970 --> 01:08:35,440
and that's another empty promise right

1587
01:08:38,339 --> 01:08:35,980
there

1588
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:38,349
it's those empty promises over and over

1589
01:08:42,169 --> 01:08:40,449
and over and caused you to turn and just

1590
01:08:44,700 --> 01:08:42,179
go what the hell is going on

1591
01:08:47,849 --> 01:08:44,710
where is satisfaction where is

1592
01:08:51,329 --> 01:08:47,859
resolution here's a counter here's a

1593
01:08:54,510 --> 01:08:51,339
counter-argument to that and it's from

1594
01:09:01,169 --> 01:08:54,520
Ken Wilber who many people will know

1595
01:09:02,910 --> 01:09:01,179
very accomplished in terms of yo what's

1596
01:09:07,859 --> 01:09:02,920
that I'm pretty familiar with Ken

1597
01:09:12,329 --> 01:09:07,869
Weber's work so the the crux of Ken

1598
01:09:15,329 --> 01:09:12,339
Wilbur's philosophy or the the crux of

1599
01:09:17,820 --> 01:09:15,339
his contribution is this idea of wake up

1600
01:09:21,919 --> 01:09:17,830
clean up grow up and the idea is that

1601
01:09:24,809 --> 01:09:21,929
when we look at people who have some

1602
01:09:27,999 --> 01:09:24,819
abilities to master these extended

1603
01:09:31,090 --> 01:09:28,009
consciousness realms these abilities to

1604
01:09:33,070 --> 01:09:31,100
maybe perfect some of the yoga skills

1605
01:09:37,030 --> 01:09:33,080
that you're talking about they go from

1606
01:09:39,280 --> 01:09:37,040
the 100 pound dumbbell up to the 200 300

1607
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:39,290
pound dumbbell and we look up and we go

1608
01:09:44,950 --> 01:09:42,290
wow and then the next thing you know we

1609
01:09:47,170 --> 01:09:44,960
find out that they're screwing every

1610
01:09:48,849 --> 01:09:47,180
student and they're stealing money and

1611
01:09:53,260 --> 01:09:48,859
we're doing all the rest is like well

1612
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:53,270
hey how can this be I mean this person

1613
01:09:58,090 --> 01:09:55,970
put me in Samadhi with just a look or a

1614
01:10:01,000 --> 01:09:58,100
touch on the forehead I know that's real

1615
01:10:02,890 --> 01:10:01,010
because I experienced it and and beyond

1616
01:10:05,050 --> 01:10:02,900
that we've put them on such a level

1617
01:10:07,540 --> 01:10:05,060
because we've said this enlightenment

1618
01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:07,550
whatever that means or this Awakening is

1619
01:10:14,140 --> 01:10:10,730
the ultimate goal of this whole process

1620
01:10:15,880 --> 01:10:14,150
of yoga along comes Ken Wilber and he

1621
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:15,890
says you know what we did a little

1622
01:10:23,350 --> 01:10:19,570
western pragmatism here in the form of

1623
01:10:25,479 --> 01:10:23,360
cognitive psychology and self

1624
01:10:27,940 --> 01:10:25,489
development but we need to say just

1625
01:10:30,550 --> 01:10:27,950
because you wake up does it mean that

1626
01:10:33,100 --> 01:10:30,560
you've cleaned up doesn't mean that

1627
01:10:36,430 --> 01:10:33,110
you've dealt with the shadow stuff that

1628
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:36,440
we all have just from living a normal

1629
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:39,250
life and it doesn't mean that we haven't

1630
01:10:48,760 --> 01:10:44,290
grown up emotionally and become more

1631
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:48,770
just more of a responsible person what

1632
01:10:54,130 --> 01:10:51,530
do you think about Ken Wilbur's idea of

1633
01:10:57,580 --> 01:10:54,140
wake up clean up grow up and how does

1634
01:11:01,000 --> 01:10:57,590
that relate to this yogic philosophy

1635
01:11:06,030 --> 01:11:01,010
that we've been talking about yeah this

1636
01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:06,040
way to say Yama niyama expound on that

1637
01:11:10,750 --> 01:11:08,570
right I mean yeah that's what yama

1638
01:11:14,290 --> 01:11:10,760
niyama are coming to grips with all your

1639
01:11:16,030 --> 01:11:14,300
inner demons you can't turn around and

1640
01:11:18,130 --> 01:11:16,040
go through that Bindu and experience the

1641
01:11:20,350 --> 01:11:18,140
absolute but these are magnetic forces

1642
01:11:23,800 --> 01:11:20,360
that prevent you from doing that Don I

1643
01:11:25,690 --> 01:11:23,810
am totally I am totally 100% with you

1644
01:11:27,430 --> 01:11:25,700
and I jumped on that right at the

1645
01:11:30,310 --> 01:11:27,440
beginning because that was always my

1646
01:11:32,770 --> 01:11:30,320
understanding of Yama in the Yama but

1647
01:11:36,220 --> 01:11:32,780
let's deal with the fact that that's not

1648
01:11:38,500 --> 01:11:36,230
how this has played out in our society

1649
01:11:39,660 --> 01:11:38,510
right so that's a good that's what I

1650
01:11:42,330 --> 01:11:39,670
said see when you released

1651
01:11:42,780 --> 01:11:42,340
to understand it and let them Nia and

1652
01:11:45,120 --> 01:11:42,790
Yama

1653
01:11:46,880 --> 01:11:45,130
take over one of the things that's

1654
01:11:48,990 --> 01:11:46,890
happened to me is I'm just really

1655
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:49,000
manifestation it's like the surface of

1656
01:11:53,160 --> 01:11:50,890
the lake it's the surface of the ocean

1657
01:11:54,810 --> 01:11:53,170
during the storm it's all cloudy and

1658
01:11:56,669 --> 01:11:54,820
crazy and nuts and then you go

1659
01:11:59,430 --> 01:11:56,679
underneath and it's very calm and quiet

1660
01:12:02,280 --> 01:11:59,440
the further down you go the calmer it is

1661
01:12:04,189 --> 01:12:02,290
it's always a storm on the surface

1662
01:12:07,430 --> 01:12:04,199
that's the definition of the surface

1663
01:12:09,990 --> 01:12:07,440
manifestation is poise a mess but here's

1664
01:12:11,490 --> 01:12:10,000
here's the essential truth we're going

1665
01:12:13,860 --> 01:12:11,500
to change it we're not going to change

1666
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:13,870
it that's the nature of it yeah but but

1667
01:12:17,850 --> 01:12:15,730
here's the essential truth that Ken

1668
01:12:20,520 --> 01:12:17,860
Wilber has tapped into and I think it

1669
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:20,530
relates back to that wonderful phrase

1670
01:12:25,500 --> 01:12:22,810
that you turned in there in terms of at

1671
01:12:27,209 --> 01:12:25,510
least the humanities understand that we

1672
01:12:29,459 --> 01:12:27,219
live in a culture and that we live in a

1673
01:12:31,080 --> 01:12:29,469
society as opposed to science you

1674
01:12:32,850 --> 01:12:31,090
sometimes you know I always say the

1675
01:12:35,939 --> 01:12:32,860
biologic robot in a meaningless universe

1676
01:12:38,880 --> 01:12:35,949
it's like you don't really even believe

1677
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:38,890
that stuff so at least humanities raises

1678
01:12:44,220 --> 01:12:41,650
us out of that well in the same way here

1679
01:12:46,890 --> 01:12:44,230
I think with what Ken Wilber is doing is

1680
01:12:49,229 --> 01:12:46,900
saying we've kind of become enamored

1681
01:12:51,840 --> 01:12:49,239
with this idea of enlightenment and

1682
01:12:54,930 --> 01:12:51,850
we've really elevated it to a point and

1683
01:12:57,780 --> 01:12:54,940
we fundamentally misunderstood it so you

1684
01:12:59,700 --> 01:12:57,790
can then introduce the reintroduce Yama

1685
01:13:04,200 --> 01:12:59,710
new Yama - but don't we have to

1686
01:13:08,520 --> 01:13:04,210
acknowledge that even the the the Hindu

1687
01:13:11,070 --> 01:13:08,530
culture for hundreds of years and as

1688
01:13:13,650 --> 01:13:11,080
it's been brought forward into our

1689
01:13:17,729 --> 01:13:13,660
culture and meshed with our culture has

1690
01:13:19,530 --> 01:13:17,739
fundamentally maybe missed this a little

1691
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:19,540
bit and we can't say everybody has

1692
01:13:23,729 --> 01:13:21,370
because there's obviously a lot of

1693
01:13:25,650 --> 01:13:23,739
people who have gotten it but there's a

1694
01:13:27,120 --> 01:13:25,660
lot of people who've really it's

1695
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:27,130
actually really interesting what you're

1696
01:13:31,140 --> 01:13:28,810
asking it's really interesting and it's

1697
01:13:34,860 --> 01:13:31,150
complicated its historical right and

1698
01:13:36,180 --> 01:13:34,870
pretty the way that I responded first

1699
01:13:37,620 --> 01:13:36,190
thing that pops into my head to respond

1700
01:13:39,240 --> 01:13:37,630
you notice through the whole of yoga

1701
01:13:41,750 --> 01:13:39,250
consciousness I make no bones about

1702
01:13:43,890 --> 01:13:41,760
referring to Western civilization

1703
01:13:44,790 --> 01:13:43,900
because it only accepts the world

1704
01:13:47,250 --> 01:13:44,800
incentives

1705
01:13:49,580 --> 01:13:47,260
it's just prepare it right in your face

1706
01:13:52,430 --> 01:13:49,590
as I'll get hit with a bone or something

1707
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:52,440
it's just preparing where

1708
01:13:57,170 --> 01:13:55,050
growing out of a prism you know that's

1709
01:13:59,870 --> 01:13:57,180
one angle the other angle is when you

1710
01:14:01,729 --> 01:13:59,880
look at the manifestation its cyclic

1711
01:14:03,709 --> 01:14:01,739
right so there's times of calm followed

1712
01:14:05,450 --> 01:14:03,719
by times of storm times of calm followed

1713
01:14:07,400 --> 01:14:05,460
by times of storm and that's gonna

1714
01:14:09,890 --> 01:14:07,410
happen culturally too right so you have

1715
01:14:11,360 --> 01:14:09,900
the Pax Romana for 200 years and then

1716
01:14:14,300 --> 01:14:11,370
the perfect age is where it's just all

1717
01:14:15,800 --> 01:14:14,310
chaos alright and so you know

1718
01:14:17,959 --> 01:14:15,810
civilization wise you're going to have

1719
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:17,969
times at least and then you're gonna

1720
01:14:22,850 --> 01:14:20,730
have just times of chaos it's just it's

1721
01:14:26,090 --> 01:14:22,860
just the nature of the waves see that's

1722
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:26,100
really like a key idea that teaching the

1723
01:14:30,890 --> 01:14:28,650
Indian philosophy of like the Maya hey

1724
01:14:32,830 --> 01:14:30,900
Maya is manifestation and it's made of

1725
01:14:36,590 --> 01:14:32,840
gunas of what our goodness their wave

1726
01:14:39,070 --> 01:14:36,600
that's all it means is wave and the

1727
01:14:42,590 --> 01:14:39,080
waves can be of three kinds they can be

1728
01:14:45,740 --> 01:14:42,600
like slow or they can be chaotic like

1729
01:14:48,080 --> 01:14:45,750
fire or a storm or tornado or they can

1730
01:14:50,209 --> 01:14:48,090
be harmonious like a lightweight

1731
01:14:52,729 --> 01:14:50,219
satphone you got Rogers timeless and

1732
01:14:54,560 --> 01:14:52,739
thoughtful more eco the more convinced I

1733
01:14:56,660 --> 01:14:54,570
am that that is the fundamental physics

1734
01:14:58,430 --> 01:14:56,670
of all reality that our physics

1735
01:15:01,030 --> 01:14:58,440
eventually will converge that

1736
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:01,040
understanding because it does explain

1737
01:15:05,689 --> 01:15:03,570
everything around us even the nonlinear

1738
01:15:08,000 --> 01:15:05,699
dynamics that we're slowly falling into

1739
01:15:10,750 --> 01:15:08,010
will be our expression in our culture of

1740
01:15:14,540 --> 01:15:10,760
that basic insight the Hindus discovered

1741
01:15:17,330 --> 01:15:14,550
you know in the times of on a shop very

1742
01:15:18,650 --> 01:15:17,340
however long ago that was but this is

1743
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:18,660
basic understand that's the nature of

1744
01:15:23,990 --> 01:15:20,850
the manifestation which is just one

1745
01:15:26,540 --> 01:15:24,000
aspect of existent right and so here we

1746
01:15:29,630 --> 01:15:26,550
are in that thing and it has the power

1747
01:15:31,850 --> 01:15:29,640
of my of delusion of garden you had a

1748
01:15:33,140 --> 01:15:31,860
bit can you believe it's real of taking

1749
01:15:35,750 --> 01:15:33,150
the being that is our consciousness

1750
01:15:37,729 --> 01:15:35,760
remember consciousness as the magic

1751
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:37,739
power of giving being giving existence

1752
01:15:42,490 --> 01:15:40,530
to stuff so hold on down I want to take

1753
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:42,500
one more shot at this because it you

1754
01:15:48,200 --> 01:15:44,610
where I'm getting where I'm coming from

1755
01:15:51,470 --> 01:15:48,210
is in the same way that the humanities

1756
01:15:53,990 --> 01:15:51,480
acknowledge that there is culture there

1757
01:15:57,200 --> 01:15:54,000
is society at play I think what Ken

1758
01:16:00,890 --> 01:15:57,210
Wilber is tapping into is that we've put

1759
01:16:04,530 --> 01:16:00,900
this process of awakening /

1760
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:04,540
enlightenment and we've held it to

1761
01:16:10,950 --> 01:16:07,090
the goal we've put it forth as the goal

1762
01:16:12,960 --> 01:16:10,960
of this consciousness evolution and what

1763
01:16:16,110 --> 01:16:12,970
he's calling into question here in a

1764
01:16:19,800 --> 01:16:16,120
very Western barbaric bone on the head

1765
01:16:22,290 --> 01:16:19,810
kind of way is to say maybe not and

1766
01:16:23,130 --> 01:16:22,300
that's a contribution that's something

1767
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:23,140
different

1768
01:16:28,050 --> 01:16:26,530
that I think we have to examine and we

1769
01:16:30,510 --> 01:16:28,060
can say like you're saying well that

1770
01:16:32,070 --> 01:16:30,520
just got lost and if we go back far

1771
01:16:34,410 --> 01:16:32,080
enough the yama and the new yama

1772
01:16:37,620 --> 01:16:34,420
understood it and stuff like that but

1773
01:16:41,760 --> 01:16:37,630
what does it say that that it it is lost

1774
01:16:44,280 --> 01:16:41,770
in so many of the Yogi's that we've

1775
01:16:46,430 --> 01:16:44,290
experienced over the last hundreds of

1776
01:16:49,950 --> 01:16:46,440
years hundreds years who did have

1777
01:16:54,330 --> 01:16:49,960
achieved some kind of mastery of this

1778
01:16:56,640 --> 01:16:54,340
extended consciousness and yet haven't

1779
01:16:59,310 --> 01:16:56,650
grown up and have it cleaned up that's

1780
01:17:01,260 --> 01:16:59,320
the you know in the book I called the

1781
01:17:02,820 --> 01:17:01,270
intermediate zones which I found from an

1782
01:17:04,830 --> 01:17:02,830
author on the internet I can't think of

1783
01:17:08,220 --> 01:17:04,840
his name right now cite him in the book

1784
01:17:10,770 --> 01:17:08,230
but it's like everything from here on

1785
01:17:12,870 --> 01:17:10,780
the screen all the way to the pen dude

1786
01:17:13,290 --> 01:17:12,880
until you pass through the pen do all

1787
01:17:17,250 --> 01:17:13,300
that

1788
01:17:19,950 --> 01:17:17,260
okay viz delusion of delusion if you

1789
01:17:21,480 --> 01:17:19,960
believe any of it you're deluded but the

1790
01:17:24,120 --> 01:17:21,490
thing is and this is the fundamental

1791
01:17:27,260 --> 01:17:24,130
process so this is where I would I don't

1792
01:17:29,910 --> 01:17:27,270
know if I'd say argue with Wilbur but

1793
01:17:31,680 --> 01:17:29,920
under Lou's conception when you become

1794
01:17:35,570 --> 01:17:31,690
the absolute you see there's only one

1795
01:17:37,920 --> 01:17:35,580
thing going on absolute somehow some

1796
01:17:39,290 --> 01:17:37,930
miraculous process that probably humans

1797
01:17:43,970 --> 01:17:39,300
will never be capable of understanding

1798
01:17:47,820 --> 01:17:43,980
like fans out into manifestation and

1799
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:47,830
manifestation the purpose is to fall

1800
01:17:52,350 --> 01:17:49,930
back into being the absolute and he

1801
01:17:53,700 --> 01:17:52,360
calls it the rhythm of creation it's all

1802
01:17:56,510 --> 01:17:53,710
that exists it's all that's ever existed

1803
01:17:59,100 --> 01:17:56,520
it's turtle it's never not existed

1804
01:18:01,230 --> 01:17:59,110
so you're saying those confuse being

1805
01:18:04,560 --> 01:18:01,240
halfway out of the cave with being out

1806
01:18:06,540 --> 01:18:04,570
of the cave in a nutshell yeah in a

1807
01:18:09,570 --> 01:18:06,550
nutshell yeah that's the intermediate

1808
01:18:12,000 --> 01:18:09,580
zone it's all delusional the log post

1809
01:18:14,310 --> 01:18:12,010
for folks what's up with all that and

1810
01:18:15,690 --> 01:18:14,320
and just bring us up to date on what's

1811
01:18:18,030 --> 01:18:15,700
going on well you know since writing

1812
01:18:20,810 --> 01:18:18,040
your view of consciousness that was

1813
01:18:23,460 --> 01:18:20,820
kind of a how you call a mind clearing

1814
01:18:25,800 --> 01:18:23,470
getting all by thinking at that time out

1815
01:18:26,940 --> 01:18:25,810
on paper and I've I haven't really been

1816
01:18:30,030 --> 01:18:26,950
doing anything because I'm in this

1817
01:18:31,860 --> 01:18:30,040
gestation phase now I'm looking back or

1818
01:18:34,229 --> 01:18:31,870
what I wrote I'm thinking about it I'm

1819
01:18:37,350 --> 01:18:34,239
going to synthesize it at a higher level

1820
01:18:39,420 --> 01:18:37,360
I have an idea for a book about the

1821
01:18:41,550 --> 01:18:39,430
Buddhist but these are all very

1822
01:18:43,770 --> 01:18:41,560
potential right now so things are kind

1823
01:18:46,979 --> 01:18:43,780
of quiet on that one and I really have

1824
01:18:51,050 --> 01:18:46,989
been very focused on my work stuff you

1825
01:18:56,280 --> 01:18:51,060
know looking and trying to promote the

1826
01:19:00,450 --> 01:18:56,290
dynamical theory Sellinger even you know

1827
01:19:01,830 --> 01:19:00,460
I think I said this in in my email to

1828
01:19:03,660 --> 01:19:01,840
you and I'm definitely gonna say it in

1829
01:19:06,330 --> 01:19:03,670
the introduction but I'll repeat it here

1830
01:19:09,570 --> 01:19:06,340
at the end you're a phenomenal

1831
01:19:11,640 --> 01:19:09,580
phenomenal thinker and one of my

1832
01:19:14,479 --> 01:19:11,650
absolute favorite guests that I've ever

1833
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:14,489
had you know when I started this show

1834
01:19:21,300 --> 01:19:18,090
390 interviews ago or whatever I always

1835
01:19:24,150 --> 01:19:21,310
imagined that there were people out

1836
01:19:26,550 --> 01:19:24,160
there who were truly brilliant truly

1837
01:19:29,160 --> 01:19:26,560
revolutionary who just weren't being

1838
01:19:33,530 --> 01:19:29,170
heard and if ever there was an example

1839
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:33,540
of someone who fits that who completely

1840
01:19:39,600 --> 01:19:36,850
validates the skeptic omission I think

1841
01:19:42,780 --> 01:19:39,610
it's you and your work because I really

1842
01:19:44,010 --> 01:19:42,790
nice I really it's true I've talked to

1843
01:19:45,750 --> 01:19:44,020
so many folks who have all these

1844
01:19:47,520 --> 01:19:45,760
credentials and all these degrees and

1845
01:19:51,090 --> 01:19:47,530
stuff like that and you just run circles

1846
01:19:53,940 --> 01:19:51,100
around him so it's always so great so

1847
01:19:56,040 --> 01:19:53,950
fun I've taken a long big turn it's been

1848
01:19:57,630 --> 01:19:56,050
great and I think I don't know if I told

1849
01:19:59,580 --> 01:19:57,640
you I'm actually on vacation now anyway

1850
01:20:07,580 --> 01:19:59,590
so this timing and this worked up

1851
01:20:07,590 --> 01:20:18,030
you

1852
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:20,430
so thanks for watching this video if it

1853
01:20:24,930 --> 01:20:22,330
wasn't really a video but just an audio

1854
01:20:26,490 --> 01:20:24,940
stored as a video I apologize but

1855
01:20:28,470 --> 01:20:26,500
there's more videos out there as well

1856
01:20:30,270 --> 01:20:28,480
but please check out the Skeptical

1857
01:20:31,620 --> 01:20:30,280
website you can see it here we cover a

1858
01:20:34,440 --> 01:20:31,630
lot of different stuff you might be

1859
01:20:37,770 --> 01:20:34,450
interested in relating to controversial

1860
01:20:40,500 --> 01:20:37,780
science and spirituality a lot of shows

1861
01:20:43,320 --> 01:20:40,510
up there over 350 of them are so all

1862
01:20:45,660 --> 01:20:43,330
free all available for download so do